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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:34 am 
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Ahhh the struggle, how to help you understand.

The objectification of another human being for the purposes of sociological analysis or otherwise.. is just wrong. Barack is a person, not a concept or idea to be abstractly discussed.

He's an individual.. a unique human being. Black people have been objectified for so long.. all the adjectives...lazy, agressive... so long the blanket statments, judgements, even from within our own communities.

Giving in to the temptation to make Barack 'representative' of blanket ideas of certain groups of blacks or whites, to make him 'the magic negro' instead of Barack Hussein Obama the individual, plays into the mindset that objectifies and made slavery possible in the first place

'John the bigoted caucasian' as representative of all insensitive white people would be equally offensive.

We all have to learn to think of each other outside of these labels and parameters.

The discussion of the need of some groups to assuage their 'guilt' could have taken place entirely without the objectification of Obama himself with that terminology.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:47 am 
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VertiCon wrote:
I am curious to your take on the original article --separated (if you can) from Rush, the parody, and Chip.


I haven't read the article (I probably should go do that before I get off the computer this evening.) But, from the excerpts Rush quoted, (and those he quoted from Shelby Steele) some of the points seem valid.


I did read it. I'm not particularly big, believe it or not, on the "black intellectual" take on things. I never saw Obama as some mythical figure. He was a guy with an uphill battle, whose campaign only really took off when his better known competitors made key mistakes. So, no, I'm not really a fan of the article. (I also somehow missed the connection between the "offensive" article and the song, which is somehow not offensive).


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You made much during the campaign that it is offensive to say that Black folk were voting for Obama "just because he is black" (or at least perceived black).


Actually, I made much of both the accusation that blacks were voting for Obama just because he was black as well as the accusation that whites who didn't vote for Obama were not doing so because he was black. I spent a lot of time defending both groups.

And if you compare the voting patterns of the previous eleven Presidential Elections, it's pretty easy to make the case that blacks, like usual, voted for the Democrat by overwhelming margins. Also, the trendlines show that every next elected Republican President since 1964 has averaged a lower level of black support than the one before him. Nixon averaged 14%. Reagan averaged 10.5%. George H.W. Bush got 10%. George W. Bush averaged 9.5%. The fact that McCain did even worse is in line with expectations. Actually, a Gallup poll for the 1996 election showed that 96% of blacks supported Clinton and this year's contest wasn't substantially different. Also, Gallup showed that a markedly lower percentage of black voters had ever even been contacted by the Republican Party in any way in the first place.

88% of white voters in Alabama and Mississippi voted for John McCain this time. Someone could take that and swear that racism is the motive. But 85% of Mississippi voters voted for President Bush in 2004, along with 80% of Alabama voters. Whites voted for the Republican Party by just a slightly smaller margin nationally than they did in 2004. Most voters of all races indicated that race wasn't a major factor in their vote and I believe them. All of them.

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(I'm not sure we could measure such a thing one way or the other. Possibly we could if we studied the number of first time voters who are black, and are also older and thus could've voted in previous elections, but didn't. But, I digress.)

Anyway, as I take the argument offered by the article (as portrayed by Rush) its that --in this political context-- "Magic Negro" is not about black people, so much, rather its about white people.

Which is to say, Barack Obama is such an enigmatic figure (pre-2004) that he is a convenient screen to project the hopes and dreams of those who support him ("him" meaning Barack-the-myth, 'cause who is Barack-the-man, really?).

Barack as "magic negro", if the point of this argument is valid, is a black person that can do all the magical things that guilty white people would want him to do, and do them without white discomfort, because he doesn't threaten white people with things they don't understand.

The messiah narrative didn't detract from Obama's campaign because magic negro is a kind of messianic concept. He "saves" white people from their sin, and leads them to the promisedland --without being a racial threat, because he is transracial.

If he was a real man with a real history of the so-called "authentic" black experience, and the life of controversy which would go with that (like Jesse Jackson) then he couldn't be elected.

Because, someone like Jackson is about struggle, neverending controversy. But, Obama was about the gold at the end of the rainbow, and his pigmentation gave him permission to take white people where they knew that Bill Clinton could never quite take them.


I think that there could be truth in the fact that some white voters voted for Obama because it made them feel good to vote for the black guy. There were some blacks who voted for him because he was black. There were some whites who didn't vote for him because he was black. Race was a factor for some voters. But I think that the percentage of voters for whom race was a serious factor was pretty small and overstated.

I think that Obama had a better message - corection: Obama had a message and his opponent didn't. He came off as polished and well spoken, obviously intelligent and poised. He is a young man and that probably helped him in addition to the fact that he's attractive. He had a far superior campaign staff and proved to be a pretty doggone good stump speaker with a gift for the counterpunch - he was quick to respond to Republican charges and turned them into amusing lines that gained crowd support. He's a talented politician. He made far fewer mistakes. I think this - and not "magic" or his race - accounted for a lot of the votes that put him in office.

I don't believe he got elected because of his race - he ran against the GOP this year. If he lost, I would not have believed he lost because of his race either - he's a Democrat. He's a very gifted politician with a message that fit what people wanted most - "change" - and was blessed to run first against a worthy competitor (Clinton) who made key mistakes and against a good man (McCain) who ran a totally incompetent campaign.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:48 am 
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tpetersel wrote:
Ahhh the struggle, how to help you understand.

The objectification of another human being for the purposes of sociological analysis or otherwise.. is just wrong. Barack is a person, not a concept or idea to be abstractly discussed.

He's an individual.. a unique human being. Black people have been objectified for so long.. all the adjectives...lazy, agressive... so long the blanket statments, judgements, even from within our own communities.

Giving in to the temptation to make Barack 'representative' of blanket ideas of certain groups of blacks or whites, to make him 'the magic negro' instead of Barack Hussein Obama the individual, plays into the mindset that objectifies and made slavery possible in the first place

'John the bigoted caucasian' as representative of all insensitive white people would be equally offensive.

We all have to learn to think of each other outside of these labels and parameters.

The discussion of the need of some groups to assuage their 'guilt' could have taken place entirely without the objectification of Obama himself with that terminology.


Agree totally.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:41 am 
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tpetersel wrote:
Ahhh the struggle, how to help you understand.

The objectification of another human being for the purposes of sociological analysis or otherwise.. is just wrong. Barack is a person, not a concept or idea to be abstractly discussed.


Hmmm. Well, I think I understand objectification about as well as the next person.

Be that as it may, I would argue Barack Obama objectified himself, as much as anyone, if not more. "We are the ones we have been waiting for."

Politicians love objectification. Objectification, needn't be degradation, per se. It can also be self-aggrandizement to mythical proportion. This is, afterall, largely what fascism did, making the state a kind of religion, and the leader a cultic superhuman figure.

In contradistinction, the lack of that is what makes Mike Huckabee so appealing, i.e., he keeps the self-puffery to a minimum. So, we are getting largely the true Mike in public, I think. I hope. Mike is down to earth. I would suggest Barack Obama is not down to earth, nor do I think he wants to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:48 am 
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VertiCon wrote:
Which is to say, Barack Obama is such an enigmatic figure (pre-2004) that he is a convenient screen to project the hopes and dreams of those who support him ("him" meaning Barack-the-myth, 'cause who is Barack-the-man, really?).

Can you guess who else called Obama (if that's his real name), "A Blank Screen"? None other than Obama himself! Here's a video of an interview with Hillary Clinton, in which, she mentions that Obama said this of his own self in his book, "Audacity of Hope". Hillary used the, "Blank Screen", in a context similar to the one you described in your comment (As she made use of some, "self-puffery" :mrgreen: ).

http://clintononobama.blogspot.com/2008/11/clinton-calls-obama-blank-screen.html

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:12 am 
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"Do unto others as you would have them do unto." Seems like that would solve a lot of problems if we could remember and do that always! Turn any statement around on yourself and see how it feels before saying it.

Those inconvenient statements that depart our lips are taken "who knows where" and can be heard by "who knows whom." And with the internet and satellite, etc, it can be instanteously spread across the world. Beware the "open mike" and the word given "off the record." Beware the gossip given to supposedly loyal friends. And beware the off-color joke that was assumed to be understood and overlooked by hearers.

"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." (Matthew 12:34) What is in our hearts that might "pop out" inconveniently? Maybe there is prejudice, buried deep down.

Of course, there are times for confrontation and just criticism, but calling people names is rather a sign of immaturity, my momma taught me :wink: It shows lack of respect, something we could use more of in our society today.

Someone here said that we need to remember to criticize peoples' ideas and positions and not judge their motives (which are subjective, anyway). I would say not to judge their worth, either..."So and so is a more valuable person based on color or ability or age or economic status, etc." Like Mike tells us, all human life is precious. And like he also says, Do not judge a person by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Chip, I believe, likes to be funny and got caught up in the cleverness of all the songs on the CD. He did not think of how far-reaching a careless word or two could be. He must have been a little desparate trying to find a Christmas gift for all the Republicans on his list. But I wish he had thought how this might set back one of the most needed changes in the Republican Party -- reaching to the black conservative community.

So much to watch! Not only our tongues, but also our hearts! We can forgive him and pray for Chip.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:37 am 
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I think this is primarily poor judgment. The nation was/is excited to elect an African-American for the FIRST time in history which is a huge deal and that parody song is like a big slap in the face to the historical moment for our country, for blacks, etc... It's like saying "so what! we don't care - this is a big achievement for you? well, we could care less".

Beyond the offensive nature of the title (whether you can rationalize the content is irrelevant IMO), this situation is another brick in the wall that the GOP just doesn't get it. Even if Chip believed that the song was just funny and sincerely believed there was no offense intended, he should have known to avoid the perception that it would be offensive to some, especially those who the GOP needs to win over to their side.

There are times to stand your ground and explain yourself and fight to make people understand, but this is just not a hill worth dying on.

If your strategy is to build a broader coalition by winning over minorities, especially African-Americans, in your back room discussions you might say "yeah, I think that song is funny, blah, blah, blah... BUT we can't touch it with a 10 ft pole because it will give the wrong impression; instead we need to avoid the appearance of insensitivity AND we need to stand firmly on ground that we share in common with these groups; we need to prove ourselves, so rather than shooting ourselves in the foot, let's prove that we are trustworthy and we do care about them".

Trying to dismiss this issue gives the idea that any desire to bridge the gap to minorities, blacks in particular, is insincere. That is why it is IMPERATIVE that Chip Saltsman disavow the song and his decision to send the CD to people and for Mike Huckabee to speak out about it.



On another note, I noticed a post that stated that Mike Huckabee got 68% of the African-American vote in Arkansas. Not to be nit-picky, but just in the interest of accuracy, the number was actually 48%. That was probably just a typo.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:23 am 
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Yikes, just got up this morning today and saw this...(havent paid attention to the news over Christmas break).

Chip will not be chair, and to be honest the whole cd thing just doesnt make sense.

Why would he do that?

wierd.

Here is Hucks comments on it:
Quote:
So what does Mike Huckabee think? KARK caught up with the former Governor today who says he has no comment--- and knows nothing of the CD. And as for supporting Saltsman's campaign for RNC chair-- "Really that's something that doesn't have anything to do with people other than the Executive Committee," said Governor Huckabee.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28412185/

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:39 am 
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One problem I have with the comment "really that's something that doesn't have anything to do with people other than the Executive Committee" is that Huck himself endorsed Chip. If it truly had nothing to do with people other than the Executive Committee, why did he feel the need to make an endorsement?

He really needs to say something today. If nothing else, for my sake.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:39 am 
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If PC has taken over to this degree in this country that political satire about the Left
will turn even people on this board against Chip then I realize now that someone like Mike Huckabee with a sense of humor like he has will never become president. Give him another four years and he will say something that will cause most of you not to vote for him. Mike was the first person I have ever been excited enough about to follow and support. I rarely post here but read the posts daily now for over a year but this really turns me off to following politics any more. I'm back to just living my life and just voting when the time comes. This country really needs to lighten up.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:49 am 
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Maybe so, but Mike has gone to great lengths to express how much he understands the hurts that African-Americans have felt and experienced over the years. He also back-tracked from his attempted joke about Barack at the NRA convention.

He has shown for many years that he gets it. I hope and expect that he will address this more thoroughly soon.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:00 am 
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kort53 wrote:
If PC has taken over to this degree in this country that political satire about the Left
will turn even people on this board against Chip then I realize now that someone like Mike Huckabee with a sense of humor like he has will never become president. Give him another four years and he will say something that will cause most of you not to vote for him. Mike was the first person I have ever been excited enough about to follow and support. I rarely post here but read the posts daily now for over a year but this really turns me off to following politics any more. I'm back to just living my life and just voting when the time comes. This country really needs to lighten up.



I think that is unfair. I defended Mike after that joke. I repeatedly shot down the notion that racism was the main reason people would not vote for Obama. I also condemned stupid comments made by Wright and other blacks who have been racially insensitive. But I complain about a stupid song - one which has always bothered me and bothers others - and I'm the King of PC?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:05 am 
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The second attempt to post a serious comment about this situation on the HuckPac didn't make it through either. There was one other that commented on this situation, but was taking the whole thing lightly.

I think maybe the moderator is just trying to buy some time for Gov. Huckabee to get a little more rest, and time to make a decision on it. I agree with you, TVV that this something that should be addressed and is no laughing matter.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:11 am 
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kort53 wrote:
If PC has taken over to this degree in this country that political satire about the Left
will turn even people on this board against Chip then I realize now that someone like Mike Huckabee with a sense of humor like he has will never become president. Give him another four years and he will say something that will cause most of you not to vote for him.


If Mike misplays his hand on this, we may not have to wait four years for that outcome. :(

I'll still support him... but the credibility he has built up on this particular issue would be severely damaged.

On this particular subject I draw the paralell with the GOP failing to be fiscally reponsible after earning votes for that platform. The voters rejected them because they broke their promise.

Many voters embraced Mike because he appears to 'get it.' Failing to address this on his own terms in a manner that follows through on his 'political promise' will have similar levels of fallout.

The media WILL get their pound of flesh. You think that Fox won't try to get Mike slotted as a commentator on some show, and then throw him this curveball?

I pray that he's ready to do the right thing.

And there is a BIG difference between political incorrectness among friends, and political incorrectness as the face of an entire political movement.

It was just poor judgement on his part.

The fact that so many think that we are overreacting is quite depressing... but I guess it is what it is.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:17 am 
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kort53 wrote:
If PC has taken over to this degree in this country that political satire about the Left
will turn even people on this board against Chip then I realize now that someone like Mike Huckabee with a sense of humor like he has will never become president. Give him another four years and he will say something that will cause most of you not to vote for him. Mike was the first person I have ever been excited enough about to follow and support. I rarely post here but read the posts daily now for over a year but this really turns me off to following politics any more. I'm back to just living my life and just voting when the time comes. This country really needs to lighten up.


One more point. Even if Mike made a dumb comment, he would fare better. Know why? Because he has built up a reputation for being fair and inclusive as well as respectful. Rush, the originator of the song, who, before Chip, took heat for playing the same song last year, does not have such a reputation.

Do you think Rush would have gotten away with a joke about Obama getting shot and had black people defending him??

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:21 am 
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I think some would say that this song represents being past racial sensitivity (somehow rationalizing that true racial equality is when we can bash all races equally and without repercussions). I somehow suspect that this is the Rush Limbaugh/Ann Coulter school of thought.


I think some would also say that the song represents true freedom of speech. While there is truth there, it's the line of thought that reduces freedom of speech to mean freedom to be an idiot or a bigot. (Laura Bush alluded to that - in more graceful words - when she said that the shoe-thrower in Iraq, although what he did was an assault, showed the world that there is now freedom in Iraq because years ago, the guy would not have been able to do that).

But to go back to Rush Limbaugh for a moment, he always said that in this country, everyone has the right to freedom of speech - but not every has the right to be listened to. (my paraphrase). I think Chip (barring a dramatic turnaround, an unusual measure of sudden wisdom) has lost that right to be listened to through this.

As for the humor aspect -

we cherish our laughter in this country. We're not a robotic nation (think of North Korea, and how the people have been programmed to government-think), we love to laugh. We always have, and we love political parody. It's not new. Scandalous things have been said of politicians and by politicians in our history. And sometimes such scandalous statements, cartoons, and parodies create winners.

But Mike Huckabee is all about Vertical Politics - a new path, a different way. Not a humorless way, though. He can laugh, he can be pointed in his comments, he can give - and take - a joke. (I think he also knows the dynamite quality of humor - that it can be used for tremendous good, and that it can also be destructive. It's a power that its owner must use very wisely.)

Mike Huckabee can be a leader in this. I pray he uses this opportunity wisely.

(Think of Barack Obama's first post-election press conference. As soon as it was over, he had to make an apology phone call to Nancy Reagan, for a joke at her expense, about seances in the White House. When people apologize, people forgive. When people defend and deny and claim they are taking a stand on freedom of speech issues, they are seen in an entirely different light. Chip - take a stand on life, on marriage, on supporting our soldiers in the war, on eliminating the federal income tax, on free speech, on values, on eliminating government waste, on being just a really great guy. Don't die on this hill. Not only is it not worth it, it hurts an already wounded party, and shows a lack of leadership - which is the opposite of what you want to show right now. Show the qualities that made you "Mike Huckabee's campaign manager", not qualities that make you, forgive me for the harsh words, the lackey of Rush Limbaugh.)

Praying here.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:29 am 
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Just posted this on Huckpac.

Quote:
Gov. Huckabee, there is a very concerned - and respectful - conversation going on at HucksArmy (I post there as chapelccino), regarding our friend Chip's Christmas gift of the parody album "Barack the Magic Negro." (As a preview of what you'll read, please know that I feel uncomfortable even writing the title, while I certainly know the history behind it.)

It's under "Chip in trouble over insensitive CD." Please know that the posters there are among your most ardent supporters. We love you, we voted for you, we worked hard for you, we stand with you, we hope for you, we pray for you. We believe your leadership is needed right now on this matter.

Look especially to the posts of TheValuesVoter and tpetersel, both of whom are African-American conservatives who have 'battled' much for you and the causes you represent. It shouldn't matter the color of our skin - but if the GOP is to once again become the Party of Lincoln (and to 'ask' for that vote, as you have so often said) - listening to these voices is crucial.

Praying for you and for Chip and this situation.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:35 am 
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Very well stated, Donna-Jean, and I agree 100 per cent. I am also praying, and hope that Gov. Huckabee reads your comment. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:48 am 
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And if Mike did say something, he would have the good sense to apologize rather than fan the flames by refusing to.

What would have happened if Mike hadn't quikly apologized? What would have happened if Mike had blamed the media? On the other hand, how much better shape would Chip have been in if he had?

"The PC Voter"

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:47 pm 
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At its core this controversy will again expose just how out-of-touch, impolitic, and fatal to our future, Rush Limbaugh (and his immitators) have become.

Once again we get to have a public spectacle in which Republicans can only be hurt as a party and as individuals because of the pre-emminent role of Rush as "leader of the opposition." If he is our leader, I demand a vote of no-confidence!

Scores of prominent Republicans will now line up to defend his "humor" or risk being castigated for three hours a day as insufficiently "conservative."

Frankly I have had enough of an egotistical, thrice divorced, rehab-Republican defining "conservative." Personally I think conservatives have long promoted and defended: humility (especially in leaders); faithfulness (especially to spouses); self-control (especially the quality of restraint). These are "conservative" values!

Yet, Jeremiah Rush is our man and we will rally round him! Such folly!

Michael Medved was very correct in his assessment that we must move on from Rush and his brand/style of talk radio (but not the forum of talk radio):

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/12/ ... radio.html

I'd add to Medved this little gem from Rassmussen in 2007:

Quote:
JOURNALIST
FAV/UNFAV RATING

KATIE COURIC
48% / 42%

BILL O'REILLY
44% / 41%

TIM RUSSERT
43% / 34%

BRIAN WILLIAMS
41% / 26%

PAULA ZAHN
41% / 31%

CHARLES GIBSON
37% / 31%

SEAN HANNITY
37% / 29%

WOLF BLITZER
36%/ 35%

LARRY KING
35% / 46%

RUSH LIMBAUGH
33% / 62%


CHRIS MATTHEWS
26% / 37%

MAUREEN DOWD
24% / 28%

ALAN COLMES
23% / 33%



http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... ournalists

It's time for all the lemmings to follow Mr. 62% negative over the cliff.

What was Chip thinking? Oh wait...that assumes too much.

Look I'm sorry this is harsh but in the words of Rhett Butler, "Waste always makes me angry. And that's all this is...sheer waste!"

A rather "conservative" response, don't you think?

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