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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:11 pm 
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Using Revelation 20:3 as my own proof text (1967 KJV of the Scofield study Bible :wink:)........

"And cast him (Satan) into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

If figurative language is used to describe Satan as "that old serpent" in the proceeding verse and having a seal set upon him in this verse, is the bottomless pit (hell) also just figurative? It works both ways when making the literal vs. figurative argument.

I like what John DeBrine of Songtime ministries often says: if the text makes sense, seek no other sense. A lot of discernment has to be used when determining what part of a chapter or verse is to be taken literally and which is figurative, it all comes down to what hermanuetic you use to study scripture.

Now that I've brought up the word hermanuetic, I know this discussion has gone in an unintended direction. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:17 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
I don't have time at the moment to pull out some past articles dealing with this subject, but what we call dispensationalism today had a prior name in the first few centuries following Christ's time on earth and it was called, and I may mis-spell it slightly here, Chilism. Info on this can be found at http://www.cjfm.org.

But I would ask this question: which view of this issue do most liberal protestant denominations hold to? The answer is, amillinialism. As is often the case in life, the majority can often be wrong and even profoundly wrong at times.

I also wouldn't dismiss , as some may think dispensationalism is, a newer view of scripture simply because it wasn't a widely held view in previous centuries. That argument could have been made (and certainly was made by the Catholic church) during the time of the Reformation that Luther's thesis was wrong simply due to appealing to Church history. How long a theology has been in place isn't what determines it's validity, it's how it matches up with scripture.

It is necessary to qualify this, because to borrow from John Henry Newman, it is one thing to recognize an oak that grew from an acorn, but it is quite another to claim that a maple did. :wink:


So what are you saying, that your a nut? :P :lol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:53 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
I like what John DeBrine of Songtime ministries often says: if the text makes sense, seek no other sense. A lot of discernment has to be used when determining what part of a chapter or verse is to be taken literally and which is figurative, it all comes down to what hermanuetic you use to study scripture.

:


OK I'll play one more time on behalf of QVA:

KJV

John 6:

[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[52] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
[59] These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
[60] Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
[61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[67] Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
[68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

So...what is the "plain text" understanding. Why is the Catholic position that a miracle takes place which makes this event a literal reality not the more "conservative" hermenutic? Is not "accepting" this transubstantiation (and the Faith that would be required to believe God's power performed such a regular miracle) the real obstacle rather than "understanding" the shocking blunt and direct language of Jesus?

{OK - now I'm just throwing rocks at hornet's nests :wink: :shock: :oops: }

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:20 am 
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Not sure where you're going with that ( QVA can argue with you on that one :lol: ), but it's interesting to note that even within the words "bread of life", you have the figurative word "bread" describing Christ as the substance of literal "life". Neither a wooden literalism nor a figurative/spiritualizing approach to scripture works, one has to discern what the text is saying within the larger context of the chapter.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:28 am 
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goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
I don't have time at the moment to pull out some past articles dealing with this subject, but what we call dispensationalism today had a prior name in the first few centuries following Christ's time on earth and it was called, and I may mis-spell it slightly here, Chilism. Info on this can be found at http://www.cjfm.org.

But I would ask this question: which view of this issue do most liberal protestant denominations hold to? The answer is, amillinialism. As is often the case in life, the majority can often be wrong and even profoundly wrong at times.

I also wouldn't dismiss , as some may think dispensationalism is, a newer view of scripture simply because it wasn't a widely held view in previous centuries. That argument could have been made (and certainly was made by the Catholic church) during the time of the Reformation that Luther's thesis was wrong simply due to appealing to Church history. How long a theology has been in place isn't what determines it's validity, it's how it matches up with scripture.

It is necessary to qualify this, because to borrow from John Henry Newman, it is one thing to recognize an oak that grew from an acorn, but it is quite another to claim that a maple did. :wink:


So what are you saying, that your a nut? :P :lol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :wink:

No, that you are!
:joltin

(You should have resisted! :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:32 am 
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Okay, guys, just because you are so much fun to argue with I'll add this food for thought (pun intended): Manna (can you guess where I'm gonna go with this one, SDoc?)



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:33 am 
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But don't you remember, you psycho-analysed me as the street fighter type...........I couldn't help going there! :lol: :P :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:36 am 
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OK..now quick...think of Romney so we can all get back to the same mindset again!

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:42 am 
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And just so no one gets the wrong idea, Southern Doc is to Huck's Army what Bernie Parent was/is to the art of Ice Hockey goaltending....................this is a huge endorsement, I'm talking bigtime. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:45 am 
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goalieman wrote:
But don't you remember, you psycho-analysed me as the street fighter type...........I couldn't help going there! :lol: :P :wink:


Nah, I was wrong.

Actually, you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:47 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:
OK..now quick...think of Romney so we can all get back to the same mindset again!


Romney is to Huck's Army (and conservatism) what I was on a bad night in goal.........full of holes! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:49 am 
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Okay, c'mon - don't bail on me now just when things were getting interesting.

How does manna fit into the whole "bread" thing - the description is not of Wonder Bread so does anyone wonder why God called it bread?
(ooh, the word play is coming fast & furious now!)


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:49 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
But don't you remember, you psycho-analysed me as the street fighter type...........I couldn't help going there! :lol: :P :wink:


Nah, I was wrong.

Actually, you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee! :D


But I don't need to be drunk to do that! :lol: :P

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:52 am 
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goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
But don't you remember, you psycho-analysed me as the street fighter type...........I couldn't help going there! :lol: :P :wink:


Nah, I was wrong.

Actually, you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee! :D


But I don't need to be drunk to do that! :lol: :P

You're right! I'll amend it: you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee - except that you don't need to be drunk -- and it is usually more advertent than inadvertent! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:04 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Okay, c'mon - don't bail on me now just when things were getting interesting.

How does manna fit into the whole "bread" thing - the description is not of Wonder Bread so does anyone wonder why God called it bread?
(ooh, the word play is coming fast & furious now!)


Actually, it was the Israelites who gave this bread the name manna. Exodus 16:14 says "And when the children of Israel. Saw it, they said to one another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat." The word manna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words that mean "What is it?"

So the best I can guess is, it was a form of bread, probably a good multi-grain beings God made it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:10 am 
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goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Okay, c'mon - don't bail on me now just when things were getting interesting.

How does manna fit into the whole "bread" thing - the description is not of Wonder Bread so does anyone wonder why God called it bread?
(ooh, the word play is coming fast & furious now!)


Actually, it was the Israelites who gave this bread the name manna. Exodus 16:14 says "And when the children of Israel. Saw it, they said to one another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat." The word manna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words that mean "What is it?"

So the best I can guess is, it was a form of bread, probably a good multi-grain beings God made it. :wink:

Oops, you're right - I forgot. But my point is still there - Moses, God's mouthpiece, told them it was the bread that the Lord had given them. Now, reading on, how does it describe the appearance?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:12 am 
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You're right! I'll amend it: you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee - except that you don't need to be drunk -- and it is usually more advertent than inadvertent! :wink:


Don't think I want to go the WW2 movie direction. The "Doc" character always ends up having to crawl out under fire to drag someone back; patches them up; the battle is won; then gets killed by a "last bullet." :tinfoil

So just in case I want it known:

You get your legs blown off...don't come running to me.

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Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:17 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:

Nah, I was wrong.

Actually, you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee! :D


But I don't need to be drunk to do that! :lol: :P

You're right! I'll amend it: you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee - except that you don't need to be drunk -- and it is usually more advertent than inadvertent! :wink:


Character assassination............that's what this is! :P

But you have me thinking.....is there a pro-Romney website I can go visit and wade into? Hot Air I guess. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:18 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:
Quote:
You're right! I'll amend it: you're like the old WW2 movies of the drunk soldier that inadvertently starts a brawl in the bar & then happily wades into the melee - except that you don't need to be drunk -- and it is usually more advertent than inadvertent! :wink:


Don't think I want to go the WW2 movie direction. The "Doc" character always ends up having to crawl out under fire to drag someone back; patches them up; the battle is won; then gets killed by a "last bullet." :tinfoil

So just in case I want it known:

You get your legs blown off...don't come running to me.

Nah, you're more like Southern Doc Holliday. Well, hmm, he didn't have too happy an ending either, gotta work on this one...


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:28 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Okay, c'mon - don't bail on me now just when things were getting interesting.

How does manna fit into the whole "bread" thing - the description is not of Wonder Bread so does anyone wonder why God called it bread?
(ooh, the word play is coming fast & furious now!)


Actually, it was the Israelites who gave this bread the name manna. Exodus 16:14 says "And when the children of Israel. Saw it, they said to one another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat." The word manna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words that mean "What is it?"

So the best I can guess is, it was a form of bread, probably a good multi-grain beings God made it. :wink:

Oops, you're right - I forgot. But my point is still there - Moses, God's mouthpiece, told them it was the bread that the Lord had given them. Now, reading on, how does it describe the appearance?


"As small as the hoar frost on the ground".

If you can figure out what that might look like, let me know! :wink:

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