After working on a lengthy reply that was almost done, it just suddenly up & disappeared (why do I still use IE instead of sticking with Firefox?). Grrr.

I will post some of the links used for my reply instead. Maybe tomorrow I will attempt to connect the dots between them again. Maybe not.

Please fill me in - honestly, this is a piece of news that I have not seen. BTW, the House passed CC&B. Reid instantly flushed it down the toilet as expected. So what was the point really? Everyone knew it would be DOA in the Democratic majority Senate.

If you want to compare our current state to an abusive relationship - then it would be more accurate, using your point of view not mine, to equate the GOP to a guy that is using his girl. And then you are advocating that the girl dump the guy - who as it turns out also happens to be the girl's only protection from the rapist who wants to physically & mentally abuse her. Hmm, wait a minute - the girl knew this & was using the guy, too, for protection. That would make it a symbiotic, rather than parasitic, relationship...

I'm sorry, McFox, I do not understand how your point relates to my post. If the Fair Tax were in place, then we would not have to worry about corporations rolling tax increases into the price of their goods. But it is not, and so we do.

Businesses are sitting on their money right now because, with all that DC is doing - and not doing - they need to keep a larger than usual margin to protect themselves from all the legi$lative threats that are looming on the horizon while the Dems have a majority. This is an extremely threatening business environment & they are being pragmatic.

Consumers are not spending as much either because of the budget cuts many of us have been forced to make & the current atmosphere of job insecurity. Which means that businesses are selling less & cutting back. Which means that more people are getting their hours cut or jobs phased out & spending less. And so on in a vicious cycle.

We need a govt that does not pose a threat to big or small business - at least the GOP supported big business, the Dems are strangling them both. Add to that the fact that the mortgage mess was never actually corrected - they just threw a lot of money at all the wrong people, as if it were going to prime the pump, and then were perplexed as to why things didn't start flowing again.

Instead we have a govt that wants to penalize the few that are still doing well. What will a company do whose costs of business increase while it's sales are decreasing? See the vicious cycle I mentioned above.

They are feeding the downward spiral into economic death. And wisdom dictates that we do all we can to stop them & get them out of power asap

Cut Cap Balance was never going to go anywhere, just like the Ryan budget. Yet they are good indications of what the new GOP would do if we controlled Congress and WH, so I'm sorry to hear you'll be ridiculously standing in the way of that goal.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

I admit, I did not take the time to read everyone's posts so I might be agreeing with many of you or I might be going out on a limb.

I think the better question is how will I react if a debt deal IS reached? If a deal is reached and the GOP allows the debt limit to be increased 2.5 trillion+ with cuts that arent coming until who knows when, I am going to be upset. I would rather see no deal get reached, no matter the effect that it has on the economy. I think that republicans have presented enough plans that if things go bad there will be a large enough portion of the public that will blame Obama and the dems. I think that the GOP actually has the upper hand here and I would make sure to use that power right now.

I do think they should increase the debt limit, but only if real cuts NOT TO DEFENSE are decided on.

I watched a live news feed this morning of the House GOP freshmen giving a news conference. I only watched it for a couple of minutes and did not get a chance to hear what they were saying. However, there was something that seemed wrong to me with the picture. The freshmen were frequently laughing and seeming to be having fun while they were describing their response to the Boehner bill. This might seem like a small matter, but, I mention it because a lot of people in this country are seriously stressed out (myself among them) because of the potential economic fallout based on the tug-of-war in Washington. People are afraid (and I am one of them) and highly stressed. I know they have probably been working hard as well, but, the image of a bunch of decision makers seeming to be having a good time while the rest of the country is stressing out because of their negotiations - just doesn't sit right with me.

To keep it fair and balanced here, I saw yesterday that a Democratic member of the House of Representatives was arrested for protesting over the issue of immigration. Umm - Immigration??? I was thinking to myself "does this guy not realize that we're on the verge of a major crisis and it's his deliberative body that needs to be working to avert the crisis?" WHY would he pick this week of all times to leave work at the House and go and create a scene over the issue of immigration? I just don't understand it.

Meanwhile, of course, another Democratic House member was forced to resign for sexual scandal, just months after the Wiener scandal.

It makes it seem that these guys maybe don't have enough to do. It also adds to the tarnish on the institution of the House of Representatives. As I've seen more and more about Congressmen in the news, either doing stupid and outlandish things or seeming to have fun in the middle of a crisis, playing political games, etc., I am less and less impressed with the quality of the people we send to Washington. Just thinking out loud. But I can already sense that a lot of Congresspeople may be voted out next year on all sides.

_________________
The Values Voter
http://thevaluesvoter.spaces.live.com

I hear what you're saying, TVV, but some of us actually handle stress & nerves that way. My son's neurologist told him that people who deal with life's challenges like that have the best mental health.

If it's distressing you that much, it would be better for your health to find something to take your mind off of it. It's not like you making yourself unwell is going to affect the outcome. (This coming from someone whose life Scripture is Matthew 6:25-34! )

I was VERY disappointed when Huckabee dropped out of the race and have no enthusiasm for ANY of the current candidates. I don't have much hope in our current President or Congress. But, I know I can trust God. Psalms 118:9 "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes." [or politicians!!!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjr-3HTIeyA

_________________
Psalms 144:1 "Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:"

You want to throw a curve ball in there? Read this from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/28/b ... ?hpt=hp_c1

To sum up a portion of it, the president couldnt have 2 $1trillion coins minted and deposited into the treasury to make payments and not have to have congress approve anything. There is a limit on paper money, but not coin. 2 platinum coins with a face value of $1trillion each could be minted. It insane.

It seems to me that we are in agreement, the fair tax is not currently the law of the land so we all have to play by the current rules.

I just saw this on usa today:

Shame on Jim Jordan, Chaffetz, Gohmert, and all the shia faction for leaving the speaker without the needed votes and ensuring that we'll probably end up wth something worse. Hopefully one or two of them comes over soon so this thing can go to the senate. We had all the momentum and these geniuses brought it to a halt.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

Not even close to true. The Republican's hand STRENGTHENS on Aug 3. We WILL NOT default, but there will be serious repercussions. People will likely blame Republicans in the short term, but so long as they have a plan on the table and continually insist on THAT plan, it eventually becomes, "How much longer will Obama refuse to sign the bill?"

At the same time, the Reps can ask very simple questions: "What is SO BAD about forcing the government to balance its budget? You do it!"

FURTHER, the freaking out over the debt-ceiling is EXACTLY the problem. People are scared that if we don't raise it then we will lose our credit rating and suffer a partial gov't shut down. BUT IF WE PASS THE BOEHNER PLAN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN. We may avert the shutdown, but we will STILL lose our credit rating, and THAT will destroy the economy. Interest rates will go through the roof. CC&B is the ONLY plan that meets the ratings agencies' demands. THE ONLY ONE.

You can sit there and tell me all you want that I'm ridiculous (or my position is). Two can play that game. Just change the terms, because the path YOU want us to go down WILL result in our credit rating being destroyed. And worse, the Republicans will have voted for the plan that killed that rating. You're going to own the bad economy then, and you'll lose the very campaign issue you've got right now.

-------------------------------


Chambliss and his awful "gang of six" plan came out THE SAME DAY as CC&B passed. That undermined negotiations with the Senate. The only reason Reid was able to pronounce it DOA was because he had not one, but THREE plans (counting McConnell's idiotic suggestion) he could work with.

Boehner then didn't even push for CC&B. Instead, he offered a FOURTH plan (the one they are voting on today). They never intended on pushing CC&B. Boehner and co. only allowed a vote on it so that the TP congressman would have something to brag about. Did you know, for instance, that Boehner refused to allow there even be a VOTE on a plan that would force Geitner to pay our debtors first in the case that the debt ceiling didn't get raised. TPers wanted it. Toomey had pushed hard for it in the Senate. Boehner didn't WANT it to get voted on because he wanted to be in the position he is now: to be able to threaten TP members and tell them to "get your @$$ in line" (literal quote). He knew that if that bill passed, it would give him less leverage over the freshmen house members.

I'm telling you, the Republican party is NOT conservative. Some TP members are, and the longer you people keep supporting them and their compromises with evil, the longer it will be before we get out of the mess we've made for ourselves (if we ever can). I know you all have the best of intentions, but you know where they say the road paved with those leads.

As far as your version of my analogy, you are suggesting that we do something wrong to avoid something worse. Sorry, I don't buy that. We do what is right and trust God for the rest. Imagine if the FFs had the attitude of the modern Rep supporter. We'd all have an English accent and spend our afternoon drinking tea and eating crumpets. Sometimes what is right is difficult, scary, and requires sacrifice. But that which is not right is wrong, and I'm done supporting the wrong side.

_________________
To Give a Reason for the Hope - a practical, twelve week, online series to help Christians effectively defend and share their faith.

So if Obama followed your method of politics, he would simply veto anything he didn't like 100% and wait it out until everyone got tired and passed exactly what he wanted. Obama thinks he's correct. Why shouldn't he adopt your tactic? Why shouldn't Reid adopt this?

Second, Republicans won't own the bad rating. We all know they wanted to pass CCB.

Third, the current Boehner plan achieves 2/3rds of discretionary cuts that were in the Ryan budget. Your "true conservatives" are trying to kill this plan, why, so D's and moderate R's can pass the Reid plan instead?

Fourth, Treasury already has plans of prioritized payments, it doesn't need Boehner's permission.

Conservatism is prudence and the art of the possible, it isn't this petulant reality-denying stuff we're seeing from Jordan, Chaffetz, et al.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

I am absolutely DISGUSTED with Congress. I hope every single one of the members OF BOTH PARTIES who have been part of this fiasco find themselves out of office this time a year and a half from now. I am so embarrassed for our country.

_________________
The Values Voter
http://thevaluesvoter.spaces.live.com

Miserere, if he cares about his policies enough, he should try it. Eventually someone has to blink. I actually think Obama, for instance, played the healthcare debate terribly. If he were interested in doing what he really thought was right, he should have pushed for a single payer system (under the argument of expanding Medicare). Conservatives would have flipped out and fillibustered, and he should have simply waited it out. Force them to stay on the floor debating until they eventually just got worn down.

Some things in politics have to be compromised. Major defining moments have to be fought for. I don't judge liberals for fighting for policies they believe in. I judge them for being morally wrong on those policies. I judge conservatives for not fighting for the policies they believe in, especially when part of not fighting means appeasing evil, which is exactly what Boehner and his supporters are doing.

I REALLY hope his plan fails tonight. I hope the TP can hold the line. I hope they FORCE CC&B back to the table. I hope that becomes the one and only plan they unite behind, because anything less WILL result in our credit score being downgraded.

A vote for Boehner is a vote for destroying America's credit. If you can sleep comfortably with that, then go for it. I can't.

TVV - that's two of us.

_________________
To Give a Reason for the Hope - a practical, twelve week, online series to help Christians effectively defend and share their faith.

Please stop pretending as if it's Boehner's fault CCB couldn't pass the senate.

No one is convinced.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

Assertions arguments do not make. Way to deal with the facts I presented.

I'm just flatly disgusted at the Republican apologists who are so willing to sell out their principles for the good of their party. You watch. If Boehner's plan passes, we will lose our credit rating, and when it does, I'll hold YOU responsible

I'm through with you. Have any last word you want. Why bother debating someone who is more interested in party than principles.

_________________
To Give a Reason for the Hope - a practical, twelve week, online series to help Christians effectively defend and share their faith.

Jac3510, please calm down. Miserere is not your enemy. Nor am I for that matter. I have always admired your zeal, but please remember what Jesus told the Sons of Thunder.

Recognize that none of us are in the midst of what is going on & so our information is biased by whatever source is providing it to us (& those sources are also not right in the midst of things). All of us are being bombarded with different ideologies that are doing their best to be persuasive. It should not surprise you that we're going to be persuaded by that which most closely resonates with our own ideologies & experiences.

I am wondering what source or sources you are using for your information? Experience has taught me (though I have obviously not mastered it by any stretch) that trying to see an issue from the other's viewpoint is more constructive than condemning them for being hopelessly & willfully deluded.

For example, Drudge just posted Rush saying "We've Been Played"
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/ ... guest.html
and Ron Paul saying 'the default is coming! the default is coming!'
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... oming.html

There are multiple viewpoints on this & only God knows which one comes closest to the Truth. It is possible for good, God-loving people to disagree about political, or even ideological issues without having to shake the dust over it.

By all means, hold me responsible.

But let me say it one last time in different words: Paul Ryan understands the fiscal crisis we find ourselves in (perhaps not as well as you... but I think we can agree that he gets it, understands the budget, credit ratings, economics, all of that).

Paul Ryan and I support CCB. He voted for it. Helped pass it out of the House. To suggest he secretely is conspiring against it and "appeasing evil," whereas you brave sir are its true defender is delusional.

The trouble with CCB is that it cannot pass a dem senate or a dem president. You can pretend that Obama and Reid are secret solid conservatives willing to pass and sign a solidly conservative piece of legislation, but others cannot pretend so much. You cannot run the government from the House.

Obviously we need CCB or something of similar effect. For you, someone who has said he is unwilling to elect Republicans, the folks who gave us CCB, for you to say I am responsible for us not having CCB is the worst case of the pot calling the kettle black I am acquainted with.

You demand the House somehow envelops all of government so its laws are automatically engrossed, yet you won't help us take the senate and presidency which is our only chance of doing the thing actually, legally, and properly.

You call it true conservatism, I call it madness.

I would say more but I'm posting from a kindle and it's really a lengthy pain to type on this thing.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

Admittedly the fault is mine for injecting needless snark into my posts. Thought I would try a tough love sort of approach but it just comes off snarky. To paraphrase Bobby Lee, it is well snark is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.