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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:46 pm 
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It is difficult when the subject is one about which people feel passionately. I've certainly added my fair share of heat to this conversation. Our household is in the tightest financial condition that we have ever been. I, too, am extremely worried & upset about the garbage they are slinging over there. We are hurting already & it looks like they are going to make things significantly worse. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't scared.

Still, I am reluctant to assign evil motives to everyone involved. I believe there are a lot of immoral people holding office, but I do also believe that there are a lot of well meaning people on both sides of the aisle & some are just misguided. I try to discern based on what they say vs what they do. I am not totally persuaded that Boehner is one of the good guys, mainly because of his track record. However, I have seen nothing yet to convince me that he is one of the bad guys either. The last deal Boehner won turned out to be fairly hollow, but could he have done better? I doubt it seriously.

His job, by definition, is to craft together a solution that can get passed; that is necessarily going to involve some painful compromise & so I cannot see faulting him for trying to do his job (particularly under such difficult, if not impossible circumstances). Seems the issue at hand is whether or not such compromise is the correct answer for this situation.

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The trouble with CCB is that it cannot pass a dem senate or a dem president. You can pretend that Obama and Reid are secret solid conservatives willing to pass and sign a solidly conservative piece of legislation, but others cannot pretend so much. You cannot run the government from the House

I believe the accusation is that Boehner et al are secret, well, liberals is probably not the thinking (though I am open to correction), so I guess it would be secret status quo-ers?

But they have at least as much information as we do, & in all probability, more. I am always leery of viewpoints that assume the pols in question have not heard the same information I have. Obviously they will pick & choose what they believe, but things like S&P saying they're going to downgrade us on our current trajectory is more a matter of fact than opinion or ideology. So I also tend to be more negative on those pols who are ignoring factual information in favor of their ideology. Which is how I have arrived at the point where I am now. Still, I remain open to new information & retain the option to revise my view with reasonably credible information.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:20 am 
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I think that if a deal is not reached over the weekend, many members of Congress should be asked to resign.

WHY did Boehner walk away from a deal that, even if it had some revenue increases, ultimately would have resulted in a $4 trillion dollar defecit reduction? Isn't that better than a $1 trillion dollar defecit reduction? And he did this to pursue a Republican-only deal, which will fail as soon as it leaves the House, IF it leaves the House, which will likely still result in a credit downgrade and possibly a default? What kind of logic is that?

This is what I hate about Washington. It's like this is a game to these people. Furthermore, some voters are so in hate with the President and so in love with the party brand that they can't see the ways that the GOP House leadership has been screwing this up. Trust me, this is the EXACT opposite of what would be needed to bring more fiscal conservatives to Washington. People are so mad that I would not at all be surprised if many Congresspeople lose their next elections.

I can't help but wonder which is the most important priority to some of these leaders - making sure that our ability to meet our immediate obligations is intact or trying to score points against the President. But I don't think I need to ask the question because the answer is evident based on the way that things have gone down over the past week.

In retrospect, I would jump at the chance to save $4 trillion dollars in defecit spending over the chance of saving $1 trillion dollars and going into default, even if the $4 trillion dollar option included the elimination of tax loopholes without the tax rate being raised. If there is any logic for prefering the other option, I simply do not understand it.

And why, oh, why, is the House even bothering to go through this procedure? The bill is going to be killed in the Senate and it's taken all week to even (unsuccessfully) get it to the point at which a House vote can be taken. This is absolute insanity and I want no part of the elected officials who have gone down this route of insanity.

I say again that I'd rather have a bunch of kids running the country than this group of grown-ups. Kids can in general get along with each other better than the group of adults who are running the government. I'll nominate my niece for Speaker of the House and my nephew for Senate Majority Leader. Can anyone suggest any of their relatives for other positions, especially in Congress? After Election Day next November, there could indeed be some vacancies.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:43 pm 
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WHY did Boehner walk away from a deal that, even if it had some revenue increases, ultimately would have resulted in a $4 trillion dollar defecit reduction? Isn't that better than a $1 trillion dollar defecit reduction?

Because when you are bargaining with someone who agrees to something all the up to almost the end of negotiations, and then they try to reintroduce everything all over again, you tend to recognize that (a) they're not bargaining in good faith & (b) precious time is being wasted while you play along with their game.

Do you really believe that Obama is going to cut $4 trillion while the GOP only wants to cut $1 trillion? Is fiscal conservatism consistent with his political track record? Why isn't the TEA Party clamoring for the grand deal? Is the TEA Party going to refuse to help save our country from going over the cliff to spite Obama & the Dems? For all the issues I have with the TEA Party, they are not squishy or partisan on fiscal conservatism. Notice that Carney has repeatedly refused to discuss any details of what was in that so called "grand deal"?

Maybe it all looks illogical because information puzzle pieces are either missing or are not arranged correctly.

In a previous post I offered these Drudge links. If you want to understand some of the other viewpoints at play here, I would encourage you to take a look. I don't care for Limbaugh & Paul has some repugnant positions, but their rationale is reasonable. It is hardly fair to accuse those one disagrees with of playing games or not caring, when their motivations have rational premises, even if one disagrees with them
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For example, Drudge just posted Rush saying "We've Been Played"
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/ ... guest.html
and Ron Paul saying 'the default is coming! the default is coming!'
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... oming.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:45 pm 
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If I were Boehner, Ryan, or one of the other conservatives, I would be mighty tempted to ignore the Willfully Dense Wing of the Tea Party from here on out, writing legislation that could pass with the bulk of the Republican caucus and Blue Dogs in a supporting role.

When you have Jim Jordan's staff getting outside groups like Club for Growth to pressure Republicans to vote no, when you have people saying they're going to run a tea party challenge to ALLEN WEST, for Pete's sake, then you have a derailed movement, and it's time to run them out of the party as was done to the Birchers.

I would try to run conservatives in districts currently represented by Willfully Dense members, ousting them in primaries, or, if possible, try to get state legislatures to write them out of their districts in the redistricting process.

However, all indications are that Boehner has been very polite and understanding and so forth. He's a more patient, less brutal man than I am.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:46 pm 
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Miserere, did you watch Ron Paul's clip linked above? Curious to hear what others think...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:53 pm 
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well, it looks like a balanced budget amendment was tacked on to Boehner's bill to get the TP votes. Reactions?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:54 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Miserere, did you watch Ron Paul's clip linked above? Curious to hear what others think...


"Default by inflation," I don't know what he could mean. Paul is always predicting massive inflation around the bend, no matter what's going on.

Even if a miracle occurred and the Senate and the President signed off on the Ryan budget tomorrow, we'd still have to raise the debt ceiling. Any Republican who voted for the Ryan budget (which is all of them, isn't it?) and is also unwilling to raise the debt ceiling is a hypocrite.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Chadballer wrote:
well, it looks like a balanced budget amendment was tacked on to Boehner's bill to get the TP votes. Reactions?


What a joke. The Boehner bill was a stretch in the Senate without the BBA. If TP is going to insist on BBA getting passed out of the senate, then they are ensuring a combine of sane R's and D's in the House and the Senate passing the McConnell contingency.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
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They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Paul's solution about freezing spending at last year's rates sounded reasonable, but I admit to being pretty ignorant on this stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Here's a link at Fox with a fairly helpful collection of snippets from the debt debate
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07 ... -on-track/

Sounds like everyone pretty much recognizes that there's going to be a downgrade regardless of what happens; not surprisingly, they're just scrambling to see that the other side gets blamed for it. While I agree that there's plenty of bipartisan blame to be shared for some degree of irresponsible spending, surely we can agree that the Dems are the ones blocking the cuts needed to save our credit rating?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:20 pm 
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So let me get this straight, CCB would save our credit rating and anything else will cause it to downgrade. It passed the house but got killed in the Senate and would probably be vetoed by Obama in any case...sounds like the Dems are to blame here...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:30 pm 
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I can't believe that there are people who aren't putting the blame on both parties here. Again, this is one of the reasons we have a lazy Congress whose main motivation is to wave the boogey man (the other party) around and hope that voters will absolve them and "their side" of all blame while blaming the others.

Folks, the Democrats have not wanted to have a balanced budget and should have taken care of this when the House and the Senate were both in Democratic hands before this January 3rd. On the other hand, the majority of the $9 trillion dollars of our $14 trillion dollar debt that we acquired since 2001 have been borrowed when Republicans controlled the White House, the Senate and the House. I'm not sure what part of my thinking that this blame falls on every side is flawed, and since I am an Independent, perhaps I'll never understand it. I think it is what it is and it is a mess that both parties have created and that voters continue to enable them to get away with it. At least until now. I have the feeling that there will be a LOT of unemployed members of Congress in a year and a half.

One thing is for sure, though - I will never vote for any sitting member of Congress of either party for anything in the future. With the squabbling and the gamesmanship that has been going on all over the place there, I don't think any of them should be entrusted with any serious level of responsibility ever again.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Chadballer wrote:
So let me get this straight, CCB would save our credit rating and anything else will cause it to downgrade. It passed the house but got killed in the Senate and would probably be vetoed by Obama in any case...sounds like the Dems are to blame here...


No, it's not just CCB. From the S&P guy:

Quote:

Mainly, he seemed to stick by the agency’s suggestion that a $4 trillion target long-term deficit reduction plan would be necessary for the US to keep its AAA rating.

“The $4 trillion, depending on whether it’s front-loaded or back-loaded, won’t do the trick in terms of stabilizing the US debt/GDP ratio,” he said, “but it takes you far along, and a grand bargain of that nature would signal the seriousness of policy makers.


In the event that we got downgraded, it might not that big of a deal. Japan got downgraded and I don't think very much happened as a result. David Wessel had a piece in the WSJ about this, but it's behind the pay wall:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... dit+rating

I have the paper at home, I'll try to post some of the main ideas of the piece when I get home.

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Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
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Work which to see scarce so much as begun
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:55 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
I have the feeling that there will be a LOT of unemployed members of Congress in a year and a half.


I doubt it. I'm not sure how closely most people are following this, truth be told. Could be wrong, but I think we're outliers as far as obsessively following this.

Just saw John Garamendi (D) on CSPAN say that the Boehner bill will return us to the 19th century. :floor

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:13 pm 
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TVV, short version, it's because now when there is no more leeway, the GOP came up with CC&B -- and Dems came up with "It's the GOP's fault" and Obama came up with a "grand bargain" that you have to pass to see what's in it... :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
TheValuesVoter wrote:
I have the feeling that there will be a LOT of unemployed members of Congress in a year and a half.


I doubt it. I'm not sure how closely most people are following this, truth be told. Could be wrong, but I think we're outliers as far as obsessively following this.



I wish that were true, but I don't think so. I talk to a lot of people and also travel quite a bit and it's not just one of those "inside the beltway things" from what I've observed. Maybe two weeks ago this was the case, but, right now, this has sort of gone viral. It is the absolute last thing we needed for our economy and this uncertainty has given people yet another excuse to not hire.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Chadballer wrote:
well, it looks like a balanced budget amendment was tacked on to Boehner's bill to get the TP votes. Reactions?




Realistically we have until Tuesday to save our credit rating, so how long would it take to add the balanced budget amendment to the constitution?

How long before house would pass it?

How long would it take 2/3 of the senate to pass it?

How long would it take the President to sign it?

How long would it take for 38 state legislatures to ratify it?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:00 pm 
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The BB Amendment is not intended to solve the immediate problem, but to address the overall spending problem. So the holdouts were willing to agree to the current short term bandaid plan providing they were given what they believe will eventually "heal" the problem in the long term.

I am inclined to believe that the House will pass Boehner's bill, the Senate will pass Reid's bill, they will hash out the differences over the weekend & pass the mongrel. (Unlike Rush, I do not believe we've 'been had'; it's just where we are at this time - too ideologically divided as a country) Then we will get our rating downgraded and they will all start the blame game again. And really - that's pretty much what everyone is doing, isn't it? Divided we fall...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:26 pm 
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2012 can't come soon enough. If we still have divided government after the elections, then we're in trouble.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:56 pm 
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I just heard Ben Stein on CNN. I can't find the link as of yet, but he had a few critical comments for the Tea Party. He said that there were some "confused" people running the country and that while he has always advocated for a balanced budget and commended the Tea Party for pushing for it, that a default would have very bad consequences for the country and the economy.

He made one suggestion that I thought was absolutely brilliant. He suggested having a formula for balancing the budget over economic cycles, taking recessions and growth periods into account. For example, if unemployment were 5%, the budget would need to be balanced. If it were 10%, the government would be permitted to run a 10% defecit. If unemployment were less than 5%, the budget would require a 10% surplus in order to pay back the money that was borrowed during the difficult periods of time. I think that's a pretty darn good idea.

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