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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Maybe not so much here at HA where we have both functioning brains and functioning hearts. But some people out there seem determined to take whatever position "they" are on the other side of. On both sides, actually. It's sort of a sad statement about society at large.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:12 am 
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Mike Huckabee's monologue on his TV show:
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Well, this Wednesday marks 44 years since Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in Memphis, TN.

Now, I was a few months shy of my 12th birthday on that April 4th night in 1968, but I remember vividly the tragic and senseless murder of a man who both taught and lived the model of non-violent resistance.

In the days and weeks following his death, the honorable memory of this Christian leader who based his teachings on the lesson of the New Testament was besmirched by those who used it as an occasion to riot in the streets, loot businesses, and burn down buildings.

By doing the very things Dr. King spoke out against and which he resisted such as violence and indiscriminate hatred, they dishonored his life's work and his life's ministry.

Such moments bring out the worst in some and yet the best in others. While some exploited his death for their own purposes to fan the flames of racism and others merely used his murder as a means of looting, burning, and stirring outright mayhem, there were some voices of reason and compassion who rose above the noise of the streets to speak the wisdom of heaven.

Governor Winthrop Rockefeller was Arkansas' first Republican governor since Reconstruction. The day after Dr. King was killed; Governor Rockefeller stood with black leaders on the steps of the Arkansas State Capitol. He linked arms with them and he sang "We Shall Overcome" as a tribute to Dr. King.

It was a remarkable act of courage on the part of Governor Rockefeller, especially since in some Southern capitols, governors all but celebrated Dr. King's death.

Because of the vision and leadership of Dr. King and his bold dream, and the willingness of courageous leaders like Governor Rockefeller to take a stand for righteousness, things are much different today.

No longer are there separate water fountains, theater entrances, and restrooms for people of color. No longer do people who are black sit in separate waiting rooms in a doctor's office or a train station. No longer does a person of color receive a different wage than a white person for doing the same job.

And no longer is a black child forced to go to a separate and inferior school than the white child. But that doesn't mean our country has completely embraced the heart and spirit of Dr. King.

The heartbreaking killing of a young unarmed 17-year-old in Florida has re-ignited deeply seated anger and bigotry. Some are exploiting the tragic death of a teen for their own purposes to raise money or to raise their own profile by pretending to be outraged just for the cameras, but it seems that the real goal is not raising a voice for justice, but raising their own profile for personal profit.

Since we don't yet know what really happened that night in Florida, maybe fewer speeches and more tears would be in order; maybe less taking it to the streets and more taking it to the churches; maybe fewer demands for revenge, and more for reflection of the unnecessary death of a kid would be in order.

Instead of Al Sharpton and Spike Lee raising their fists in rage, maybe a modern day Winthrop Rockefeller raising his arms with his black brothers to say, "It's not a white/black thing; it's a right/wrong thing."

That's my view…and I welcome yours.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:33 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
Maybe not so much here at HA where we have both functioning brains and functioning hearts. But some people out there seem determined to take whatever position "they" are on the other side of. On both sides, actually. It's sort of a sad statement about society at large.
I agree and don't want any part of the overreactions and premature conclusions on either side.

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Also, it seems like we're so divided as a country ideologically speaking that there almost can't even be consensus that this situation is a tragedy and that it shouldn't have happened. Almost.
It's absolutely a tragedy and I am convinced that everyone here agrees about that.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:10 am 
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Here is a pretty good clip from PJTV on this subject (a conservative black perspective):

http://www.pjtv.com/v/6801

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:00 pm 
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NBC producer fired for editing 911 tape to make it appear that Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/07/nb ... latestnews

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The edited version of the call that aired on Today clearly made Zimmerman appear to say Martin looked dangerous because of his race.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good … he looks black," Zimmerman says in the version of the tape that aired.

In the unedited version of the call, however, Zimmerman answers a question about Martin's race only after being specifically asked by the 911 dispatcher.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or like he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman said, without referring at all to Martin's race.
Only after the 911 dispatcher asks "black, white or Hispanic?" did Zimmerman reply "He looks black."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/07/nb ... z1rNXfxJnB

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:49 am 
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FirstCoastTerp wrote:
NBC producer fired for editing 911 tape to make it appear that Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/07/nb ... latestnews

Quote:
The edited version of the call that aired on Today clearly made Zimmerman appear to say Martin looked dangerous because of his race.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good … he looks black," Zimmerman says in the version of the tape that aired.

In the unedited version of the call, however, Zimmerman answers a question about Martin's race only after being specifically asked by the 911 dispatcher.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or like he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman said, without referring at all to Martin's race.
Only after the 911 dispatcher asks "black, white or Hispanic?" did Zimmerman reply "He looks black."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/07/nb ... z1rNXfxJnB


I don't think that Zimmerman was a racist and I don't think that he shot Trayvon Martin because he was black. The media has been playing up the issue of race with regards to the shooting itself. I don't think Zimmerman was out hunting for black kids. I wish that this angle of the story - race with regard to the shooting - would not be emphasized so heavily.

I do think that race comes into play in what happened after the shooting and possibly what happened before the shooting. What happened after the shooting? Not much at all, according to many residents including at least one person who visually witnessed the shooting. This case seems to be receiving a thorough investigative review as a consequence of the massive public outcry and did not seem to be taking place before it became public. And the racial dynamics of the case have affected how many have responded to the case and how we perceive it.

To some people, because Martin was black and Zimmerman is not, combined with the fact that Zimmerman was not arrested and the investigation was perceived to not be thorough or transparent, they see it as an open and shut case of a racially motivated murder which is being covered up by authorities.

To other people, because Martin was black and Zimmerman is not, combined with the fact that Zimmerman says that Martin assaulted him and Martin had been suspended from school, had tweeted some obscenities and because a witness seemed to agree at some point in time with some of Zimmerman's story, they see it as an open and shut case of self-defense of a gun owner in the process of protecting his neighborhood who was assaulted by some thug kid.

Others, although they may have feelings that may lean to one side or the other, want to see more facts come to light before forming a stronger opinion of what happened.

And in terms of what happened before the shooting, it is possible that racial profiling could have been the case but it's not really clear what exactly drew Zimmerman's attention to Martin. Even if profiling did occur, there is not a criminal element to that behavior, although many of us have been in the position of being profiled and have felt a nerve touched because a lot of us, especially men, understand what it is like to be perceived as being suspicious just by being physically present somewhere.

I just hope that the truth comes out and that we can one day know what happened - one way or the other - and have justice done by determining what exactly took place that evening. And I hope that every piece of evidence is taken into account in understanding what happened.

This interview with an actual eyewitness, broadcast on CNN the other night, shows how much work needs to be done still in order to figure out what took place.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/07/ac-trayvon-martin-eyewitness.cnn

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:44 am 
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Also, the producer responsible for editing the NBC tape was fired. It is very unfair to all involved for anyone to manipulate information or to try to manipulate anyone's words - hopefully this will discourage others from thinking about doing the same thing.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/nbc_news_fires_producer_for_mi.html

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:18 am 
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maryjthom wrote:
Here is a pretty good clip from PJTV on this subject (a conservative black perspective):

http://www.pjtv.com/v/6801
This is the best take on this subject that I have heard from anyone yet (& that militant dude being interview by Anderson Cooper is an embarrassment to himself & his organization - but then I guess that's actually a good thing)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:41 pm 
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I don't understand why anybody even wastes time interviewing the New Black Panthers who Anderson Cooper interviewed. Why not interview the Aryan Nation while they're at it? The Martin family doesn't want them around. All decent people of every color condemn all of the extremist groups, both black and white. I know that talking with kooks makes for good ratings but I think America has enough to deal with without giving attention to those who use this and every tragedy as a means to promote their hatred and division.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Special prosecutor expected to charge Zimmerman:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/11/zi ... port-says/

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:51 pm 
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2nd degree murder is the charge. Great civics lesson for many viewers from special prosecutor Angela Corey.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:16 pm 
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There's still a lot to learn so we need to let the case run it's course but here is a piece of alleged evidence that Zimmerman was attacked:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_geor ... _wmain.jpg
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Also, I am going to split out the discussion of the facts of the case from the original discussion around the political figures.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I haven't read this thread yet (just now found it) so I don't know if this was discussed, but I am sick of the media using an old pic of Martin! Zimmerman didn't shoot a 12 year old so quit making it look like it.

I'll try to read through this thread when my son is sleeping.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:38 pm 
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He did not shoot an 12-year old but he did shoot and kill an unarmed minor. A person who was legally considered a child, and, more importantly, was not in the commission of any type of crime or posing any threat to anyone prior to the moment that he and Zimmerman first interacted. Zimmerman claims it was a manner of self-defense but the main evidence of this is if Zimmerman's testimony is regarded to be entirely true (including his claim that he stopped following Martin and was surprised by him on the way back to his car - a claim supported only by the defendant's own words).

Many people seem convinced that any evidence of injury to Zimmerman is proof that his life was in danger. But couldn't it have simply been evidence that he was engaged in a fist fight?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:59 pm 
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But don't you think it's dishonest of the media to keep showing a pic of Martin that is several years old?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Listened to part of the bond hearing today. The investigator for the county attorney's office said they had no evidence regarding the question of who confronted whom first. Prosecutor's case is looking awfully thin.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:33 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
Zimmerman claims it was a manner of self-defense but the main evidence of this is if Zimmerman's testimony is regarded to be entirely true (including his claim that he stopped following Martin and was surprised by him on the way back to his car - a claim supported only by the defendant's own words).
True, but it's also the only claim about what happened after Zimmerman was told that he didn't need to follow Martin. It may have been the case that he did keep following Trayvon, but there is no evidence so far to support that conclusion so to assert it as fact is to make an assumption (albeit one that may ultimately prove to be true, we will see).

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Many people seem convinced that any evidence of injury to Zimmerman is proof that his life was in danger. But couldn't it have simply been evidence that he was engaged in a fist fight?
You're right. That could be the case. The point for now of the picture above is that it appears to corroborate the claim that Zimmerman was injured by Martin, in contrast to the other picture of him at the police station. Of course, there may be more to the story and as you suggest it may not have been sufficient to justify use of the gun.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:48 pm 
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How do we know that the picture of the bloody head is authentic? What is the basis for believing that the photo is Zimmerman? If this was Zimmerman, why wasn't he rushed to the hospital immediately? And how could these giant cuts be virtually undetectable just about a half hour later when he is on the police video? And how can a person who suffered such an injury be able to walk largely unaffected thirty minutes later with minimal medical intervention?

As for the timestamp and coordinates on the image, it is extremely easy for a tech-savy person to change this. I could do it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:52 pm 
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That's true. That picture needs some vetting.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Huckabeliever wrote:
But don't you think it's dishonest of the media to keep showing a pic of Martin that is several years old?


Not necessarily.

I actually have seen many more recent pictures of both Zimmerman and Martin in the media articles I have read and watched. At first, they were showing pictures for both of them from several years ago, when Zimmerman weighed much more and when Martin was much younger.

But I would assume that the media got the early pictures from Trayvon's family. And I would go further in guessing that the pictures that we've seen the most may have been the pictures put into his memorial and his funeral program. And, from my experience, that's not unusual.

I have had the misfortune of having lost a number of members of my extended family, of different age groups, over the past five years. In all of the cases I can remember, the family selected the pictures that were the pictures we most wanted to remember the person by - regardless of whether or not they the most recent pictures. My wife's grandmother, who passed away several years ago, had a memorial service in which a picture from her in her thirties was used on the program even though she died in her late 70s. And as America mourns the late great Dick Clark, who we lost this week, we have seen countless pictures of a man who was photographed a long time before he passed away. I think that the pictures circulated by families are often the pictures that we like to remember the person by. I would guess that the press photos of Martin came from the family, probably from his memorial material, and the press ran these pictures.

I also don't entirely see what which photo has been shown of him has to do with the case. Suppose that they showed a picture of him taken an hour before he ran into Zimmerman. What about the case or the public reaction to it would be - or should be - any different as a result of that? How should the way that Martin looked on his last day - or in his last years - factor into the manner in which the public forms an opinion about the shooting?

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