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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:54 am 
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Nothing against any countries that are allies, but I feel this introduces multiple conflicts of interest, especially in foreign policy and national security.
Not to mention, with the globally interlinked economy, I would also think any economic or monetary policy positions would present huge conflicts of interest as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:30 pm 
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what's spurred this question?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:27 pm 
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To answer your question, there was:
No particular one reason for the question, just something I have been doing research on lately.
With all that is in the news lately, especially regarding China, I am reminded of years ago when politicians who had a globalist influence perused policies which led to a lot of the mess we have today, including but certainly not limited to NAFTA, GATT and the WTO. It got me thinking in general that we need people in key positions to hold alliance only to this country and not have divided loyalties.
I doubt if this may be as important to everyone, but to me it is a key area that I was curious about. There ought to be more than enough qualified people to fill any appointments who hold loyalty to the US alone - but that is just my opinion on the subject.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:49 am 
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Now that I have made known the reason for the question, does anyone have an answer? I do realize it is a question that for some reason doesn't get addressed.
Perhaps I am the only one interested... I have had the question asked by someone while attending a church seminar last year.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:47 am 
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Pardon me for showing my ignorance, do you know of specific appointments who had dual citizenship?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:31 am 
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To answer your question:
Michael Chertoff and Rahm Emanuel come to mind.

Then these (I believe non dual citizenship) appointments were made by Michael Chertoff.
Ex-Stasi Spy Chief Markus Wolf ands Soviet secret service 'KGB', General Yevgeni Primakov for homeland security.

Remember Rahm "never let a crisis go to waste" Emmanuel...

Not saying these were bad because of dual nationalities, but one born and bred true American would not want architects of tyranny responsible for our security.

Doesn't seem like such appointments are what a free country needs...

Just an example..

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:47 am 
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BTW
Thanks for your questions as they have me looking deeper into this issue and:

Doing the research in answering your questions, the more I look into this, the more it disturbs me. I have absolutely no problem with dual citizenship itself, especially involving countries that are “on the same page” with us, such as Israel.
But the more I learn, the more I am becoming convinced dual citizens should not gravitate much higher in government than maybe dog catcher,
Publicly renouncing and relinquishing their non-US citizenship should be required for anything higher up the food chain.
Also using them as private contractors should never get to a position where they can exercise any but the most limited authority over the people or create any regulations we might be subject to without significant oversight and supervision.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:07 am 
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melopa wrote:
To answer your question:
Michael Chertoff and Rahm Emanuel come to mind.

Then these (I believe non dual citizenship) appointments were made by Michael Chertoff.
Ex-Stasi Spy Chief Markus Wolf ands Soviet secret service 'KGB', General Yevgeni Primakov for homeland security.

Remember Rahm "never let a crisis go to waste" Emmanuel...

Not saying these were bad because of dual nationalities, but one born and bred true American would not want architects of tyranny responsible for our security.

Doesn't seem like such appointments are what a free country needs...

Just an example..


To answer your original question, I would say that Mike Huckabee definitely should not appoint dual-citizenship people to office (not smart for security; plus there are plenty of good possible candidates in our own country). Then I would say he probably would never think of doing that. Although, Michael Chertoff was a Bush appointment, who I never thought was quite up to speed. Now we know why, I guess.

This is hard to understand and something that needs further research--that Chertoff appointed a Stasi spy chief and a Soviet KGB guy. And we wonder why we feel unsafe along our borders!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:32 pm 
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In further researching this it is unclear Chertoff actually did the hiring though Office of Information Awareness (OIA) which is involved in spying on United States citizens, had hired both General Yevgeny Primakov and General Aleksandr V. Karpos, former KGB heads, as consultants and advisors.

Anyway, my main point is that there are more than enough good qualified Americans whose citizenship and loyalties reside here with our country alone.
Why ever look to people who have sworn allegiance to multiple nations?
If they truly want to serve this country, why not publicly under oath, permanently renounce and relinquish their foreign citizenship.


This thread has gone places I didn't really intend.
Had I received an answer to the question posed my first post
I wouldn't have checked so far into this and I am at the point where I don't want to go deeper since I'm beginning to think it better to be a clueless happy sheep. Maybe there is something to just accepting all this since we are quite powerless to change it.



justgrace wrote:
melopa wrote:
To answer your question:
Michael Chertoff and Rahm Emanuel come to mind.

Then these (I believe non dual citizenship) appointments were made by Michael Chertoff.
Ex-Stasi Spy Chief Markus Wolf ands Soviet secret service 'KGB', General Yevgeni Primakov for homeland security.

Remember Rahm "never let a crisis go to waste" Emmanuel...

Not saying these were bad because of dual nationalities, but one born and bred true American would not want architects of tyranny responsible for our security.



Doesn't seem like such appointments are what a free country needs...

Just an example..


To answer your original question, I would say that Mike Huckabee definitely should not appoint dual-citizenship people to office (not smart for security; plus there are plenty of good possible candidates in our own country). Then I would say he probably would never think of doing that. Although, Michael Chertoff was a Bush appointment, who I never thought was quite up to speed. Now we know why, I guess.

This is hard to understand and something that needs further research--that Chertoff appointed a Stasi spy chief and a Soviet KGB guy. And we wonder why we feel unsafe along our borders!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:49 pm 
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I have a huge problem with dual citizenship. Either you're an American or you're not. I believe the oath of citizenship precludes dual citizenship. Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong. I would have a huge problem with any high level appointments with dual citizenship in any country.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:02 pm 
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juditupp wrote:
I have a huge problem with dual citizenship. Either you're an American or you're not. I believe the oath of citizenship precludes dual citizenship. Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong. I would have a huge problem with any high level appointments with dual citizenship in any country.


I am really hoping Mike will not appoint anyone holding dual citizenship.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:42 pm 
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I understand your concern about dual citizens and I would agree that an oath of citizenship precludes dual citizenship. I'm curious though as to how the forum would feel about third culture kids (after they've grown up) in office? Third Culture Kids (TCK's) are defined as people who as children were exposed to cultures vastly different than the one in the parents' home country. They live in one culture out in society (such as school) and another one at home. Since they cannot reconcile the two cultures, they combine them to form a "Third" culture of their own making. Our current President is himself a TCK, but so are many Army brats, Missionary Kids (such as myself) and diplomatic brats.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:22 am 
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Chadballer wrote:
I understand your concern about dual citizens and I would agree that an oath of citizenship precludes dual citizenship. I'm curious though as to how the forum would feel about third culture kids (after they've grown up) in office? Third Culture Kids (TCK's) are defined as people who as children were exposed to cultures vastly different than the one in the parents' home country. They live in one culture out in society (such as school) and another one at home. Since they cannot reconcile the two cultures, they combine them to form a "Third" culture of their own making. Our current President is himself a TCK, but so are many Army brats, Missionary Kids (such as myself) and diplomatic brats.


I do have a problem with our President's past, but it is more of a Constitutional issue. It is very uncertain whether he was born an American and the sad thing is that nothing was done to verify this qualification before election.

Third Culture Kids? This may be a problem sometimes, but it may not disqualify one, if he or she was born in the USA. It could help one be more understanding of how to relate to the rest of the world. Or it could cause one not to really understand what the American concept of freedoms, etc. are and what our problems may be. It seemed Obama had/has this problem, as revealed by his comment that America has 57 states. I often think he doesn't really understand what our republic stands for.

What problems do you see, having been raised by missionaries abroad?

One person Mike might be tempted to tap would be the former head of El Al airlines. Mike has praised Israel's security screening at airports. But just as we need to retain American law and not start substituting international law for the Constitution, in general our leaders should be drawn from those familiar with our situation, from citizens of this country alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:42 pm 
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I find TCK's to be more of a gray area. I was not born in the US, but to American parents, raised in the church and a Christian home. I feel that the United States is my home country (when compared to a place like Congo or Madagascar, it's a no brainer.) The only trouble that I personally have is where my personal home is in this country. I've lived all over the west for my teenage years and have recently begun to exploit my ear for languages to find a place as an officer, once i have completed ROTC and pay for college through that.

My mother once gave me some advice, since she was born in the states and raised in Africa. She said to me that "TCK's belong everywhere and nowhere", because we adapt easily as cultural chameleons, but we have a hard time finding any personal understanding from other people. This, I believe, stems from having seen so much at a young age and being shaped by it. No one can really relate to TCK's unless they've traveled. Personally, I find it easier to form friendships with people who've traveled and have moved a lot, regardless of whether it's been in another country or in the US. I can understand foreigners and their point of view and perhaps relate to it more easily, but in the end, they're still foreign. I found that to be especially true on my exchange to Sweden. I could fit into the culture pretty well, but they could rarely fit into me as a person.

Overall, the world of the TCK is one that is very lonely. We develop close families and close friends (of our choosing, of course), when we can and we try to hold on to our friendships for as long as possible, because we never really know when we'll move again. We move so much that the loss usually pains us for a short period of time, but then the cycle restarts.

all in all, I'd say a TCK's weaknesses are more personal, rather than with dueling loyalties. But that's just me. There are many other TCK's out there who will disagree and say that they belong to their adopted country, rather than their parents' home. It's probably a factor of where they recieve more acceptance and where they have more problems.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Someone whose background makes him a TCK could have a skill set that would be useful in a president's cabinet or among his advisers. I don't have a problem with someone like that being in that position as long as he has demonstrated good character, loyalty and fidelity to the U.S. and has the appropriate qualifications to perform the specific job assignment.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:38 pm 
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It would be wrong to exclude them on that alone. Remember, someday Christians, at least to the government, may be considered third culture.
As long as the person has been law abiding, discriminating that way would not necessarily be warranted, or even legal. These will be adults, and whether out of private sector or public will have a record which will be quite relevant in determinibg if they are the best for the job.

Chadballer wrote:
I understand your concern about dual citizens and I would agree that an oath of citizenship precludes dual citizenship. I'm curious though as to how the forum would feel about third culture kids (after they've grown up) in office? Third Culture Kids (TCK's) are defined as people who as children were exposed to cultures vastly different than the one in the parents' home country. They live in one culture out in society (such as school) and another one at home. Since they cannot reconcile the two cultures, they combine them to form a "Third" culture of their own making. Our current President is himself a TCK, but so are many Army brats, Missionary Kids (such as myself) and diplomatic brats.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Quote:
One person Mike might be tempted to tap would be the former head of El Al airlines. Mike has praised Israel's security screening at airports. But just as we need to retain American law and not start substituting international law for the Constitution, in general our leaders should be drawn from those familiar with our situation, from citizens of this country alone.



If he wants to hold dual citizenship, or is not a US citizen, I see no problem utilizing him as a consultant, as long as there is diligent oversight of his projects.
But what I understand of EL AL, He actually may be more compatible in that they utilize well trained interviewer and intelligence, rather than in your face, mostly under qualified
Cretans who are on a power trip.

Yet they have a much more effective security record.
But that's just what I read about EL AL.
Anyone fly with them?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:30 pm 
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as a product of growing up internationally, I would say that TCK's could be valuable in all sorts of positions, especially those relating to foreign policy. We are a heavily studied subgroup, culturally and most of us are quite intelligent, as a general rule as well as able to cope with moving around in the international community, negotiating with foreign countries, interpreting, etc. I would be interested to see the statistics on how many TCK's work in foreign policy or defense capacities (in both the private and public sectors). Newt Gingrich is actually a TCK himself.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:34 pm 
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melopa wrote:
Quote:

[b]But what I understand of EL AL, He actually may be more compatible in that they utilize well trained interviewer and intelligence, rather than in your face, mostly under qualified
Cretans who are on a power trip.

Yet they have a much more effective security record.
But that's just what I read about EL AL.
Anyone fly with them?

You know, a lot of TSA agents are military vets who wanted to continue serving their country in some capacity. My husband was one of the early hires here in CO. It was a lousy job with lousy working conditions and lousy pay. He left to pursue a college education and a different career but one of his good friends still works there. The average TSA agent is just trying to do their job under difficult conditions. The TSA is bureaucratic (shocker right?), inefficient and intrusive but that isn't the fault of the employees. It's not fair to call them Cretans. They are only enforcing the policies that higher ups have told them to. I learned recently that it costs $7 a passenger for our screening. The price per passenger is over $50 in Israel. Are American passengers and/or taxpayers willing to pay the additional cost to pursue Israel's approach to airport security?? Also, we have way more traffic and airports then they do. Their airport traffic doesn't even come close to comparing to ours. Our current model isn't working and is just nuts but we need to come up with a third option because the Israel model isn't likely to work here in the U.S. Btw, I wouldn't be opposed to careful, limited profiling and I think those new scanners are stupid so it's not like I'm a huge fan of the way things are.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:57 pm 
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juditupp wrote:
melopa wrote:
Quote:

[b]But what I understand of EL AL, He actually may be more compatible in that they utilize well trained interviewer and intelligence, rather than in your face, mostly under qualified
Cretans who are on a power trip.

Yet they have a much more effective security record.
But that's just what I read about EL AL.
Anyone fly with them?

You know, a lot of TSA agents are military vets who wanted to continue serving their country in some capacity. My husband was one of the early hires here in CO. It was a lousy job with lousy working conditions and lousy pay. He left to pursue a college education and a different career but one of his good friends still works there. The average TSA agent is just trying to do their job under difficult conditions. The TSA is bureaucratic (shocker right?), inefficient and intrusive but that isn't the fault of the employees. It's not fair to call them Cretans. They are only enforcing the policies that higher ups have told them to. I learned recently that it costs $7 a passenger for our screening. The price per passenger is over $50 in Israel. Are American passengers and/or taxpayers willing to pay the additional cost to pursue Israel's approach to airport security?? Also, we have way more traffic and airports then they do. Their airport traffic doesn't even come close to comparing to ours. Our current model isn't working and is just nuts but we need to come up with a third option because the Israel model isn't likely to work here in the U.S. Btw, I wouldn't be opposed to careful, limited profiling and I think those new scanners are stupid so it's not like I'm a huge fan of the way things are.


I truly apologize to the folks you are referring to. But I have seen video form Dallas where they treated brutally, very elderly WWII vets in poor health with oxygen tanks and walkers headed to a ceremony in Hawaii. These clearly could not have been abused by ex military. In fact, some qualified vets in the TSA have lost jobs or were passed up for promotions when they reported flaws they saw in the screening procedures. They were as much as told to shut up. Management showed little or no interest in their advice.
Most of the idiocy is in the bureaucracy and the type of tsa folks you mention are the sole reason the system has worked at all.

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