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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Wendero wrote:
"also danes and swedes" - that's funny :P but too true in many cases. The church I go to now, a presbyterian church in Ireland, is very very diverse. We have people from England, Scotland, US, Sweden (obviously), Nigeria, Poland, South Korea etc... :)

Best church I've ever visited. I'm swept away by how I can really feel God's presence there :) And all the people feel so real, like they really believe in God and they are so sincere and open. Not fake and plastic like the "holier-than-thou" church I used to go to in Sweden. I've learned more in one year at that church than I did in 10 years in my old church, it's like every sermon brings up some new aspect of something you'd never thought of before.

Anyway, enough with this shameless promotion of calvinist heresy ;)


:) It sounds like Irish Catholicism could use some of the vibrancy of your church.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to downplay diversity as such but diversity-as-a-goal-in-itself. Being a Catholic in urban Texas is to dwell in Pangaea with all the continents mashed up again by immigration.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:22 pm 
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justgrace wrote:
I hope we have a large amount of grace with fellow Christians. Michelle Bachman has many good qualities. Of course, the particular doctrines a certain church holds, as well as any pastor's, are important but should stay out of the fodder for political debate here. Please. We agree on so much, and probably far more than we disagree. When we start running down the leaders of denominations, etc., or the particular areas of belief or practice that traditionally divide churches, we may play into the hands of the enemy, I fear. Democrats are pretty good at not running their own down. And they often win because of that. We conservatives get too exercised over the peripheral things that divide us. And not enough united on what we can agree upon...


As I heard about how Bachmann is being excoriated for her beliefs, I thought the same as you, justgrace. "Democrats are pretty good at not running their own down." Think of Barack Obama sitting at the feet of Jeremiah Wright! One of the reasons Obama won is because the Democrats and the media that is in the tank for him made sure that his religion (and his associations) were not considered a negative. On the other hand, they will make sure that Bachmann's religion is put front and center as a negative. (Just as a matter of info, I am a conservative Lutheran.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:37 pm 
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I have no issue with people believing that their faith is correct & that mine is wrong - what kind of faith would it be otherwise? It wouldn't - it would be the modernist religion known as relativism which is really the seat of the anti-faith. :wink:

I am aware of the history of the original Protestant denominations & how the accusations against the papacy as the seat of the antichrist came about. It was still wrong, but understandable to a degree, given the circumstances & the limits to communication of that time. I believe that the Protestants of today have far less room for accomodation in such a wicked accusation as it is harder to plead ignorance. If nothing else, Scripture says that 'no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit'. The Catholic Church - and the popes who act as the Lord's prime minister - have always professed that Jesus is Lord.

JW's & LDS are much farther from the original followers of The Way & the early Church Fathers than any other denomination that claims to be Christian - why do they not accuse them of being the seat of the antichrist? That's really just a rhetorical question; it's an abuse of Scripture.

Anyway, when I read this about Bachmann, I asked myself what was it about Obama's church that made it important politically? Definitely because Wright preaches liberation theology - which is socialism disguised as religion - that was certainly primary but that was not all. It was also because he sat there for 20 yrs letting the pastor's hate pour over him without any apparent resistance. Because he didn't see a problem with it until it became a political problem, & then political expedience was more important than his so-called religious beliefs.

So the only difference I can see from this distance is that Bachmann's church did not preach liberation theology. I cannot be a hypocrite & say that it was wrong for Obama to stay sitting in those pews & then dismiss Bachmann's similar issues because she's a conservative. It leads me to question both her judgment & her principles.

Would I vote for her over Obama? In a NY minute. I will support whoever the GOP nominee is over Obama, even if it's a corporatist, even if it's Dubya's dog. But I cannot support Bachmann's effort to get the nomination. It doesn't help that I had major reservations about her before all this came out either. This definitely clinches things.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:27 pm 
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I grew up as a Lutheran, and interestingly we felt a kinship to the Catholics because of the similarity of liturgy, etc. I do not remember any talk of the pope being the Antichrist.

We were always told that Martin Luther was a Reformer and did not want to leave the Catholic church, etc. He loved the church, but there was much corruption with the selling of indulgences and with backing of worldly kingdoms. I think even many Catholics today would agree with the assessment of that time. It was much more about politics and power in the 1400's and 1500's than today. There was not the communication we have today, and certainly no democracy or republican forms of government. So the Church was not only the spiritual reservoir of instruction, to spread the Biblical knowledge or to keep it hidden. It also became very embroiled in helping kings and kingdoms rise or fall. The reason for our First Amendment sprung from the effort of the Colonists to avoid states forcing church membership on the people, either Catholic or Anglican, etc.

There is just no comparison to today's average Catholic, who often loves, reads, and studies Scripture. And I am happy that the Catholic mass, which was only spoken in Latin for centuries, and that the people were not able to understand, has for a long while been given in English.

While there are doctrinal issues that would keep me from becoming a member of the Catholic church, there are so many things upon which we may agree. Christ is Lord over all. I just hate it when we attack our own Conservatives. The issue of Jeremiah Wright's church is different, really, because it is openly anti-American and promotes terrorism. It is not really a Christian church but rather it is a front for promoting socialism and communism.

I admire Michelle Bachman as a conservative and woman of ability, character, and accomplishment. But I do not see her as winning the election because she does not seem able to reach beyond her core group of supporters. She also is lacking in executive experience and seems to be jumping ahead too fast in her career. She may surprise me. The President we need now should be one like Huckabee, who can appeal to Americans of all political stripes and their concerns while yet being loyal to his party. None of the current crop inspires me like Huckabee does. But any of the Republican candidates so far will still get my vote over Obama, any day. (Well, I will try very hard not to let Romney win the Republican nomination! He is little better than the Democrats.)

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Post by justgrace Liked by: All-in-for-Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:13 pm 
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I was 25 years in the Catholic church and when I left, the churches where I encountered the most anti-Catholic rhetoric were the Baptist ones followed closely by the Assemblies of God. Where I lived there were a lot of BBC students who believed their calling was to tell me the evils of the Catholic church. These folks were far more rabid than any Ron Paul supporter I have ever met and I have seen both the best and worst of that group.
Lutheran Churches were the most accepting and their services were indistinguishable from the all English versions used in the catholic churches I attended since the mid 1960s. That was my personal experience at least during the 1980s.
BTW, Luther was something of what today would be called an anti-Semite.
Read some of his publications if you don't believe me.
Never experienced that type of thing in any of the Lutheran churches I ever attended.
Today It's mostly Mennonite or BIC type churches for me. Most are not too keen on preemptive war, yet without all that Quaker type liberalism.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:56 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
I have no issue with people believing that their faith is correct & that mine is wrong - what kind of faith would it be otherwise? It wouldn't - it would be the modernist religion known as relativism which is really the seat of the anti-faith. :wink:

I am aware of the history of the original Protestant denominations & how the accusations against the papacy as the seat of the antichrist came about. It was still wrong, but understandable to a degree, given the circumstances & the limits to communication of that time. I believe that the Protestants of today have far less room for accomodation in such a wicked accusation as it is harder to plead ignorance. If nothing else, Scripture says that 'no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit'. The Catholic Church - and the popes who act as the Lord's prime minister - have always professed that Jesus is Lord.

JW's & LDS are much farther from the original followers of The Way & the early Church Fathers than any other denomination that claims to be Christian - why do they not accuse them of being the seat of the antichrist? That's really just a rhetorical question; it's an abuse of Scripture.

Anyway, when I read this about Bachmann, I asked myself what was it about Obama's church that made it important politically? Definitely because Wright preaches liberation theology - which is socialism disguised as religion - that was certainly primary but that was not all. It was also because he sat there for 20 yrs letting the pastor's hate pour over him without any apparent resistance. Because he didn't see a problem with it until it became a political problem, & then political expedience was more important than his so-called religious beliefs.

So the only difference I can see from this distance is that Bachmann's church did not preach liberation theology. I cannot be a hypocrite & say that it was wrong for Obama to stay sitting in those pews & then dismiss Bachmann's similar issues because she's a conservative. It leads me to question both her judgment & her principles.

Would I vote for her over Obama? In a NY minute. I will support whoever the GOP nominee is over Obama, even if it's a corporatist, even if it's Dubya's dog. But I cannot support Bachmann's effort to get the nomination. It doesn't help that I had major reservations about her before all this came out either. This definitely clinches things.


I think an important difference is that liberation theology and all the racial stuff was an integral part of Obama's church.

One doesn't at all get the sense that that is the case with Bachmann's church. It seems to me like a liberal reporter dug this antichrist stuff up from a doctrinal statement that Bachmann probably never read.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.



Post by Miserere Liked by: justgrace
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:24 am 
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Although Bachmann isn't my first choice, I think it is a very small matter that she left a church that she hasn't attended in two years. The media will spin every single situation of any given candidate to make their stories seem more interesting. I think we need to take all these reports with a grain of salt. I agree with 'Just Grace."


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:52 am 
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Agreed that Luther had some just complaints - the Church doesn't deny that. He could have been another St. Francis of Assisi, but he went with schism.

And the Church has always encouraged the reading of Scripture (or I suppose I should say familiarity with Scripture since commoners were not able to read until the latter half of Church history & books were luxuries until Gutenberg's press in the 15th century) - St. Jerome, who gave us the Latin Vulgate in the late 300's-early 400's, said "Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ" - and the Church grants one of those controversial indulgences for those who read Scripture daily. Things, such as the rejection of certain translations, for example, have been twisted by those predisposed to believe the worst.

At any rate, I will concede the point that this may well have been in Bachmann's church's doctrinal statements without actually getting any pulpit time. The media is certainly looking for anything they can to Palinize her. So I will give her the benefit of the doubt on this issue, FWIW.

melopa, my oldest sister became a Lutheran for about a decade before returning to the Catholic Church, hers emphasized the traditional Lutheran faith while leaving the mistakes of the past in the past, but there are others that are liberal & then those that might be called classically Lutheran who still teach all of Luther's doctrines (including the pope(s) as the antichrist(s)). In general, I agree with you though - anti-Catholic Lutherans are definitely a minority, & the vast majority of anti-Catholicism I have encountered comes from those two denominations you mentioned; it seems to commonly be part of their catechizing. :? Still, a Baptist brought me back to the Catholic Church & I have quite a few friends who are Baptist (and happily, not all are taught like that). There is much that I admire about their faith; I do try to focus on that.


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