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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Why can't the Fair Tax be put into effect in short order?

The bill calls for it to be effective Janurary 1, 20XX after it is passed. (Maybe after the 16th amendment is radified if amended) I have no problem with that, but today Wolfe Blitzer was discussing the Fair Tax with Mike. He indicated it would take years to get it implemented. My question is why?

If the Fairtax were to pass this year (2008) and to go into effect 1/1/2009, businesses would begin immediately to prepare. Software companies would have the new program for the cash registers, foreign companies would start preparations to move to USA as quickly as possible, local businesses would adjust. The manufacturing plants would start getting ready for production.

The only people that could not be ready for it are the POLITICIANS! :evil: T
hey are the reason it can not be implemented quickly. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:19 pm 
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Cydney wrote:
Thanks for that article, Christian. I'll have to show my friends that. Apparently the AFT is much better at citing good sources than factcheck.org:

Both of these quotes from the factcheck.org article:
Quote:
Unfortunately, the Advisory Panel has thus far refused to release its methodology, making it difficult to reconcile its projections with those of Americans for Fair Taxation.


Quote:
The Treasury Department has so far refused to release its methodology, making it difficult to determine whose estimate is correct.


Um....yeah. Like I'm going to believe what you say as you admit you can't compare the estimates...Riiiiiight.


There's more to it than that. See this Wikipedia article at the end of the Revenue Neutrality section where: "The Treasury Department has refused to release for peer review the detailed figures and methodology used in the tax panel analysis.[28][41] FairTax proponents, including the Beacon Hill Institute and Kotlikoff, have criticized the President's Advisory Panel's study as having altered the terms of the FairTax and using unsound methodology.[34][28][41]

See, they screwed up, plain and simple. Either that, or the tried to stack the deck against the FairTax. I would agree though that FactCheck.org gets their fair share wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:50 pm 
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This is a bit of the "side of the topic", but does anyone know of a State that has implemented the FairTax or something really close to it? I know many States have a consumption tax (and some have both sales and payroll), but are they structured the same?

While I am from and current reside in Oregon, that has no sales tax, I was in Ohio for five years and found there system really messed up. The part I found the most unfair was taxing used items. For example, used vehicles. You pay the full sales tax when you buy it, then the person you sell it to pays sales tax on what you charged them and then.... until finally, 15 years later, it is sold to a wrecking yard where they pay sales tax on it again.

This cycle is not fair and I would NEVER support any policy that allowed it. It is just these types of issues that I turn to the FairTax.

Anyway, I was wondering if any State has a plan close to the FairTax, how is it working out? If non exist, then maybe we should try to get it at State level if we cannot get it moving nationally, or better yet, both at the same time!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:24 am 
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Rocky,
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire, Tennessee, and Wyoming have no state income tax. Most of these generate the bulk of their revenue via a sales tax, but not in the same way in which the FairTax would work. For example, there is no prebate system and the tax is figured exclusively (ie, it's added to the purchase price) rather than inclusively (built into the price).
I know that Michigan is actively seeking to implement a state version of the FairTax. Check out this website:
http://www.fultonsheen.us/michiganfairtaxproposal.html
I've heard that SC is also looking into it, but I can't find the details. I would really want to get involved if someone can point me to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:44 am 
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The Prebate is one of the features I really like about the FairTax. In Ohio the sales tax (as in many States) has complications as to what does and does not qualify to be taxed. Food for example is not taxed, but what qualifies as "food".. Then there are transtaxes when you transfer goods from one area to another for example (do not remember which States that applied too). I cannot imagine keeping up with a sales tax on the Internet (which we all know is coming some day) with the current various taxing methods just in the USA.

Anway, the prebate is great because it solves a lot of issues and still makes "existing" (those that have very little revenue) in the USA free. It was also interesting that it applied fairly to everyone, if you have a great deal of money, you still receive the prebate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:57 pm 
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You'll run into a few people who'll argue that the poverty level varies from one area to another, making it less fair for some and more generous to others. BUT, the thing is, it is never going to be fair under the income tax. People who think they are paying no taxes just because they get a tax refund are still paying those embedded taxes of which they are blissfully unaware.

Americans for Fair Taxation will never say the FairTax is perfect, but it's the best they can do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:16 am 
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Brian Pearson wrote:
You'll run into a few people who'll argue that the poverty level varies from one area to another, making it less fair for some and more generous to others.

To that end, the prebate is indexed according to area. Alaska and Hawaii for example get larger amounts because of the higher cost of living. I imagine this is the same in large cities as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:16 am 
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I had a small epiphany, this morning. I heard just a few words on the subject, but what I did hear was this: "...and everybody gets a check even if they don't work, that's socialist."

So it hit me that there are people who think the prebates are handouts to people who "don't deserve it." They are obviously so far away from knowing anything about the FairTax, so obviously that's at least one reason they think Huckabee is liberal. Why I didn't realize this before, I'm at a loss to say.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:21 am 
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Christian wrote:
Brian Pearson wrote:
You'll run into a few people who'll argue that the poverty level varies from one area to another, making it less fair for some and more generous to others.

To that end, the prebate is indexed according to area. Alaska and Hawaii for example get larger amounts because of the higher cost of living. I imagine this is the same in large cities as well.


Yes, I'm aware of Alaska and Hawaii. I asked Kotlikoff if he was aware of any discussion about having different prebate levels in different areas due to disparities in cost of living. He said he wasn't aware of any. But, after I got to thinking about it, I believe it would could be very complicated. There could be one degree of cost of living in one area, and twenty miles away, it would be lower.

Whether or not they were able to do something like that, I do think we would be far better off than under the income tax.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:15 am 
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About the Fair Tax

What is the FairTax plan?

The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 1025) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.

The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

The FairTax:
* Abolishes the IRS
* Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
* Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
* Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
* Allows American products to compete fairly
* Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities
* Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
* Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

Please visit http://www.fairtax.org to learn more.


Fair Tax Vs. Flat Tax
http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTax ... arison.pdf


Defending the Fair Tax (Rebuttals)
http://tinyurl.com/yox5hq



About the fair tax.... The federal bank will still have to be paid.. This fair tax would be easy to get around without getting caught... When I thought about what they would do to keep from cheating the system....How would they do this??? A cashless society is the only way... Do you think the fair tax would actually get passed by law if people thought about what would have to be done to keep people from cheating the system???? It would have to and would lead up to a cashless society... Have any christians thought about this in depth of what we could see here from this fair tax if it was passed???

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:54 pm 
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We're at a cashless society anyways :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:08 pm 
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This fair tax would be easy to get around without getting caught... When I thought about what they would do to keep from cheating the system....How would they do this??? A cashless society is the only way... Do you think the fair tax would actually get passed by law if people thought about what would have to be done to keep people from cheating the system???? It would have to and would lead up to a cashless society... Have any christians thought about this in depth of what we could see here from this fair tax if it was passed???


There'll be checks and balances. People who cheat and get caught will be subject to punishment. Actually, it's easier to cheat in the current system. And, there are more and more people "dropping out" from the tax rolls, by becoming "independent contractors." And there is the underground economy to think of, which will be taxed because they have to buy things like everybody else. The FairTax is the best idea since the Constitution, in my opinion! :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
The FairTax is the best idea since the Constitution!

Ok, that is my new signature! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Brian Pearson wrote:
Quote:
This fair tax would be easy to get around without getting caught... When I thought about what they would do to keep from cheating the system....How would they do this??? A cashless society is the only way... Do you think the fair tax would actually get passed by law if people thought about what would have to be done to keep people from cheating the system???? It would have to and would lead up to a cashless society... Have any christians thought about this in depth of what we could see here from this fair tax if it was passed???


There'll be checks and balances. People who cheat and get caught will be subject to punishment. Actually, it's easier to cheat in the current system. And, there are more and more people "dropping out" from the tax rolls, by becoming "independent contractors." And there is the underground economy to think of, which will be taxed because they have to buy things like everybody else. The FairTax is the best idea since the Constitution, in my opinion! :D :D :D


Independent Contractors? Contractors get taxed like everyone else.

The point is taken though, I know of people how do all kinds tricks to avoid more taxes. But in the end of the day, we all still pay full tax plus some. I am a firm believer in the embedded tax and it is in everything we buy. So, it is time to get the FairTax moving and get rid of the embedded tax (or at least a good chuck of it).

Sure, there will be people who avoid the FairTax, but the amount of them will be slim when compared to those that cheat now. Additionally, the amount of money paid out prepare taxes and the IRS to monitor and keep up with them will more than compensate for the cheats.

On a side note, many will not agree, but for me, I am ready for a national ID. Just a few years ago I would have went running for the hills, but not any more. It is one way to get rid of illegals and to help track people coming here legally to secure this Country. No ID card, deported!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:45 pm 
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I agree with you, mostly. But it is a fact that a number of people have dropped out of the system and are not paying taxes -- and that's not counting illegals.

With the IRS, gone, and with 20 million entities reporting taxes instead of the current 140 million, that will surely help.

The national ID doesn't bother me. Heck the drivers license and SS card are both national IDs as far as I'm concerned.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:16 am 
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Christian wrote:
Rocky,
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire, Tennessee, and Wyoming have no state income tax. Most of these generate the bulk of their revenue via a sales tax, but not in the same way in which the FairTax would work. For example, there is no prebate system and the tax is figured exclusively (ie, it's added to the purchase price) rather than inclusively (built into the price).


Ahar, but in Washington, you still have that silly thing where you have to pay taxes on used goods as well. (GHETTO...) Basically, one car could be taxed on a different value around four times before it finally hits the dump.

RIDICULOUS.

Say I buy a brand new VW Bug for 13K. WA state sales tax is something around 9 cents on the dollar, so I would pay an extra $1,170.00 just in sales tax. Two years later, I sell my car to some dude, and he's going to pay me $9K for it, but he'll pay WA State (let's assume the sales tax rate is now 9.5%) $855 in taxes. Another year down the road he resells it for $5,000 to some high school sophomore (at the 9.5% sales tax rate), and the kid has to fork over another $475 to the State gov.'t. Oh, and then after five more years (let's say the sales tax is at 10% now), he sells it for $1,200 to his younger sibling, who will now pay $120 in sales tax. One car gets taxed FOUR SEPARATE TIMES:

$1,170.00
$855.00
$475.00
+ $120.00
$2,620.00

Sick.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:58 am 
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Cydney,
You point out another distinct difference between the FairTax and a sales tax. With the FairTax, goods are only taxed once, at the final point of consumption. Therefore, used goods are not taxed. The situation you point out, though stinky, is what happens with a traditional sales tax and is a negative that is often incorrectly associated with the FairTax. The truth is often enlightening to folks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Christian wrote:
Cydney,
You point out another distinct difference between the FairTax and a sales tax. With the FairTax, goods are only taxed once, at the final point of consumption. Therefore, used goods are not taxed. The situation you point out, though stinky, is what happens with a traditional sales tax and is a negative that is often incorrectly associated with the FairTax. The truth is often enlightening to folks.


This is true. I even hear of sales tax those bad memories of being repeatedly taxed come to mind.

The other stinky that many have a problem with is that some States moved to a sales tax and drop income tax. Then later, they reinstated income tax so then you have to pay both. In Ohio, you have to deal with both Ohio sales tax and income tax. Then you have school tax and city tax.. My favorite line out there was to say "I smell tea brewing".. Coming from a State that has no sales tax it all seemed insane.. Well, then of course, it is insane ;)

It would be great if we could get the FairTax and an amendment to ensure there would be no flip back to include a payroll tax.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:38 pm 
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Cydney wrote:
Christian wrote:
Rocky,
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire, Tennessee, and Wyoming have no state income tax. Most of these generate the bulk of their revenue via a sales tax, but not in the same way in which the FairTax would work. For example, there is no prebate system and the tax is figured exclusively (ie, it's added to the purchase price) rather than inclusively (built into the price).


Ahar, but in Washington, you still have that silly thing where you have to pay taxes on used goods as well. (GHETTO...) Basically, one car could be taxed on a different value around four times before it finally hits the dump.

RIDICULOUS.

Say I buy a brand new VW Bug for 13K. WA state sales tax is something around 9 cents on the dollar, so I would pay an extra $1,170.00 just in sales tax. Two years later, I sell my car to some dude, and he's going to pay me $9K for it, but he'll pay WA State (let's assume the sales tax rate is now 9.5%) $855 in taxes. Another year down the road he resells it for $5,000 to some high school sophomore (at the 9.5% sales tax rate), and the kid has to fork over another $475 to the State gov.'t. Oh, and then after five more years (let's say the sales tax is at 10% now), he sells it for $1,200 to his younger sibling, who will now pay $120 in sales tax. One car gets taxed FOUR SEPARATE TIMES:

$1,170.00
$855.00
$475.00
+ $120.00
$2,620.00

Sick.


I hate to have you for a sister. Charge your brother that much for a car on paper. Could of been nice like lots of folks do around here on used car sales. You pay 1500 cash for it. But you agree on the cost of 250$ for it at the notary to help the people out on lower taxes on it. Then there is the reciept that say I traded you this car for work that was performed. People need to think here to help out a fellow man when it comes to taxes.


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 Post subject: "Up to poverty level"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:11 pm 
As far as I understand the FairTax (I've read the book), the prebate is uniformly distributed to every taxpayer in the U.S., regardless of locale. Depending on the cost of living in various places, that could be insufficient or more than sufficient to pay for the sales tax on necessities. For some family which is barely making it in an area with high cost of living, this could be a problem.

Is there a resolution to this issue that I'm not seeing?


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