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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:59 pm 
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our particular government is bound by our Constitution, no doubt, but all governments are under God's authority even today... the USA is not God's chosen nation like Israel was, but we are still bound by His laws

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Ken, I agree and assumed God's authority being ultimate.
I was addressing the more earthly levels of authority.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:22 pm 
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FirstCoastTerp wrote:
our particular government is bound by our Constitution, no doubt, but all governments are under God's authority even today... the USA is not God's chosen nation like Israel was, but we are still bound by His laws


I completely agree!! I'm not trying to make a point that the USA is evil, I'm just trying to say that in no way are we God's chosen nation. So we shouldn't blindly quote scripture (for example, Romans 13) as a way to justify our policies.

Paul tells us in Philippians that we are not citizens of an earthly country, but heaven!

Melopa

I must say, that is a refreshing, new and valid take on things. It is a good argument. I think the problem is that, and I think you would agree, there are bad laws.

Even in the Constitution, it only counts African Americans as 3/5 of a person. I think we can all agree this is not in accordance in God's laws. But following a strict interpretation of the Constitution would have us do that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:44 pm 
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I completely agree!! I'm not trying to make a point that the USA is evil, I'm just trying to say that in no way are we God's chosen nation. So we shouldn't blindly quote scripture (for example, Romans 13) as a way to justify our policies.


Isn't this just a tad hypocritical ? You were quoting verses such as "love your enemies" and "Vengeance is God's" to justifiy your pacifist views. So when we fire back Romans 13, all of a sudden, we're trying to justify our policies with the Bibel, and that is wrong.

If we are going to start running full circle, then this argument is done, and this thread should be locked. It is insulting of you to treat like we're retards who don't know any better.

I'm calling on a moderator here to lock the thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:45 pm 
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So we shouldn't blindly quote scripture (for example, Romans 13) as a way to justify our policies.
Nobody has blindly quoted Romans 13 to justify the policies of the USA or any other country. It seems that you are arguing with yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:43 pm 
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sn't this just a tad hypocritical ? You were quoting verses such as "love your enemies" and "Vengeance is God's" to justifiy your pacifist views. So when we fire back Romans 13, all of a sudden, we're trying to justify our policies with the Bibel, and that is wrong.

If we are going to start running full circle, then this argument is done, and this thread should be locked. It is insulting of you to treat like we're retards who don't know any better.

I'm calling on a moderator here to lock the thread.


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Nobody has blindly quoted Romans 13 to justify the policies of the USA or any other country. It seems that you are arguing with yourself.


Lelouch--I don't think I'm treating anyone like a "retard" and will again apologize if I have come off that way. I think it was you who said you wanted to "battle it out forever" just a few posts ago, now your calling a moderator here?

If you no longer wish to post, you don't have to visit the thread. The discussion is not becoming uncivil, from what I can see. I will again reiterate that I'm one of the few posters on this board who has not resorted to name-calling.

Ken (btw, hope you don't mind that I call you that? Your username is longer haha. You can call me Derek if you want.)

I apologize I shouldn't have said "blindly". So, if you aren't using Romans 13 to justify US war policies, what is the purpose? If you agree that Governments only have the right to kill when sanctioned by God, and agree that God is not "for" us and "against" them, don't we kind of agree here?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:36 am 
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So, if you aren't using Romans 13 to justify US war policies, what is the purpose? If you agree that Governments only have the right to kill when sanctioned by God, and agree that God is not "for" us and "against" them, don't we kind of agree here?
The original question you asked was whether it was right for the USA to go to war. The point of referring to Romans 13 is to state that governments (not just the USA) are justified in going to war if they are punishing evildoers. I don't think God is always on our side, but I think there are legitimate reasons for our government to fight wars. You have been condemning ever going to war very broadly and that is what most, if not all, are objecting to.

I also think Israel is right to defend itself. Same is true for South Korea and on and on. That doesn't mean I like war because I don't; it's awful. But sometimes the actions of wicked people require it.

Also, while I don't think the USA is always right, neither do I believe in moral equivalence between all countries. America has made serious mistakes and is far from perfect but in the broad scope of history, our country has been one of the best advocates for freedom and one of the most generous to the rest of the world. My allegiance is first to Christ and always will be. However, wherever we can support righteousness and justice in the world we live in, we should and sometimes that is through the arm of our government.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:58 am 
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Summary:

the poster has created the discussion he saught. I do not read much in the way of movement on the initial position he posited.

Concerning the productivity of this thread at this point:

"The more the words the less the meaning." Ecc 6:11

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:07 am 
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dking6 wrote:
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Romans 13:1-4


Oh, come on, Ken. This can't be it. Like I've already said time and time again, if we are not supposed to submit to Hitler, then this verse is clearly not meant to give free reign to humans as to who lives and dies.

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You seriously don't think there is a difference between Hitler and Bush??? Hitler was motivated by evolutionary and racist thinking (he did not think he was doing the work of God) to exterminate what he considered inferior people and to claim land not his own. Bush, whether you agree with his specific decisions or not, was trying to root out terrorists and those that support them and never has attempted to own other lands. Hitler INTENTIONALLY killed over 14 million innocent people. Bush DID NOT INTENTIONALLY kill any innocent people.


I knew someone would take it like this. The point of the comparison is that NEITHER have God's blessing, yet claim to and claim to be fighting "good" vs. "evil".


With all due respect, you can't know with absolute certainty that "NEITHER" have God's blessing.

This isn't popular, but due to effects of Hitler's tyranical reign it created the sentiment needed to form the country Israel. I abhore what he did, but God caused good to come from it.

Read Habakkuk it is a great example of a prophet complaining to God and asking why God uses evil rulers to punish Israel.

God hasn't changed. I'm not saying George Bush is evil either. I know he is not perfect, but I believe he did try to do the best he could.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:50 am 
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The original question you asked was whether it was right for the USA to go to war. The point of referring to Romans 13 is to state that governments (not just the USA) are justified in going to war if they are punishing evildoers. I don't think God is always on our side, but I think there are legitimate reasons for our government to fight wars. You have been condemning ever going to war very broadly and that is what most, if not all, are objecting to.

I also think Israel is right to defend itself. Same is true for South Korea and on and on. That doesn't mean I like war because I don't; it's awful. But sometimes the actions of wicked people require it.

Also, while I don't think the USA is always right, neither do I believe in moral equivalence between all countries. America has made serious mistakes and is far from perfect but in the broad scope of history, our country has been one of the best advocates for freedom and one of the most generous to the rest of the world. My allegiance is first to Christ and always will be. However, wherever we can support righteousness and justice in the world we live in, we should and sometimes that is through the arm of our government.


If you'll read some of my former posts, I said there might be situations where war is unavoidable. This thread is more in response to current American interventionalist policies that are happening right now, including both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I agree that America has been both one of the most generous and one of the best advocates for freedom in comparison to other countries. I think the problem a lot of people fall under though, is saying we have done enough or a satisfactory amount, which I think is false. We say this, because many of us pledge allegiance to the country and are going to stick up for it no matter what we do. (I'm not saying you or anyone on this thread is doing that, just saying I think that's a major problem.)

If we are independent of a political party and pledge our allegiance to God rather than country, Christians will find it much easier to push a pro-Christian agenda. That's how every major movement in America has done it. Whether it be slavery, women's rights or civil-rights, it was a New Testament-based, non-partisan, Christ-centered push for their agenda, pushing to make their country better.

Quote:
the poster has created the discussion he saught. I do not read much in the way of movement on the initial position he posited.

Concerning the productivity of this thread at this point:

"The more the words the less the meaning." Ecc 6:11


I think both you and lelouch should exercise your constitutional and God-given rights of not reading this thread. If you want to join in the discussion, I'd love to discuss with you. If not, I'm not sure why either of you read the thread.

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God hasn't changed. I'm not saying George Bush is evil either. I know he is not perfect, but I believe he did try to do the best he could.


I completely agree. This generally happens with someone arguing the other way, but I don't want to be lumped into the group of "Bush-Bashers". Remember, I was an all-out Bush supporter only months ago. I still like Fmr. President Bush and many of his policies and in no way believe he and his administration are among the worst ever.

I know when I make a post that compares the words of Hitler and Bush it must seem like I am in some way attacking Bush. I am not. Just trying to show that there have been many leaders and causes who have claimed the will of God behind their policies. That doesn't make it so.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:00 pm 
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I was reading the Bible this morning and came across this in Galatians and thought I would share it. I have the life application Bible, and in Galatians, Paul is explaining the purpose of the law. Instead of quoting Galatians because of its length (it's 3 chapters worth), here is what my life application Bible had to say in summary of the chapters:

"We can't be saved by keeping the Old Testament law, even the Ten Commandments. The law served as a guide to point out our need to be forgiven. Christ fulfilled the obligations of the law for us. We must turn to him to be saved. He alone can make us right with God."

I think this is what I have been trying to say about the Old Testament in relation to the New Testament. This isn't saying the Old Testament is not the word of God, just that we can't apply it directly to our lives today in the post-Christ era. However we can with Jesus' teachings.

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