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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:39 am 
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I know many on this message board are Republican (as am I) and might not like this post. I also know how controversial this post could be. I just wanted to see what everyone's thought were.

The more I read the words of Jesus, the more I stand firmly against war and believe Jesus would have never said "God Bless America".

First of all, the phrase "God Bless America" has been thrown around quite a bit. But I pose this question: does God love or want to bless America anymore than he does Mexico? What about Iraq? England? North Korea? Shouldn't we, as Christians, realize that we are not followers of a President, but a God. Why is a life in America worth more than a life in Canada or anywhere else around the world?

Next, most Christians like to show off their "WWJD" bracelets, but are they really worth anything unless we truly ask ourselves--What Would Jesus Do? What would Jesus do in the situation of war?

When Jesus said "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5), don't you think he was including terrorists? For every terrorist we kill, that is another one that could not be saved. Think terrorists are beyond saving? Then you should probably rip out half of the New testament.

I don't know if you know this, but there is a terrorist in the Bible. He is in the New Testament. He was basically known as a Christian killer and went from town to town persecuting Christians. This terrorist sought arrests, trials and punishments (even death) for Christians. He was a perpetrator in one of the most famous martyrdoms in history--the death of Stephan. His goal was to rid the earth of Christianity. His name was Saul, later known as Paul, and he wrote over half of the New testament and became a "solider for Christ" if there ever was one.

If God can do wonders with a man like Saul, can't he do those things with today's terrorists? Jesus preached time and time again--"do not return evil with evil", "if you are smacked in one cheek, turn the other", "blessed are the peacemakers", "overcome evil with good", "love your enemies, etc.

I still have yet to find one quote from Jesus that condones or allows any situation where war would be acceptable.

So tell me, am I wrong here? Or should Christians not be totally opposed to any war?

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:53 am 
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I think you would like Joel Rosenberg's weblog and his book. In the book he describes many "terrorists" who come to know Jesus and have a change of heart. The book is called Inside the Revolution by Joel C. Rosenberg. There is also a DVD you can buy if you don't like to read. The book is about 500 pages long. The DVD is broken down into three parts so you do not have to watch it all in one setting. It talks about Jihad, Jefferson and Jesus.

Joel is definitely wearing a WWJD bracelet as he is helping those in the middle east not only come to know Jesus, but providing food for Jews in battle torn parts of Israel.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:06 am 
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God has blessed America because we were "One Nation Under God." Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Pacifist must not have read the whole Bible. The Old Testament is full of orders by God to go to war. I believe the same God wrote both the Old and New Testaments. But, just in case you are wanting something more, here are a few Scripture references in the New Testament.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

"What would Jesus do?" The Bible tells us what He will do. Jesus will lead His army to "make war."

Revelation 19:11-16 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:50 am 
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GrannyT wrote:
God has blessed America because we were "One Nation Under God." Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Pacifist must not have read the whole Bible. The Old Testament is full of orders by God to go to war. I believe the same God wrote both the Old and New Testaments. But, just in case you are wanting something more, here are a few Scripture references in the New Testament.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

"What would Jesus do?" The Bible tells us what He will do. Jesus will lead His army to "make war."

Revelation 19:11-16 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


You beat me to it. I would add that Jesus certainly got violent at the money-changers in the temple. He not only turned the tables downward, but probably had to beat the greedy people black and blue to do it.

Jesus was not a pacifist, but rather a man of war.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:13 am 
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Romans 13 also makes clear that the purpose of civil government is to punish evil doers.

There's no doubt, though, that war is a terrible thing.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:09 pm 
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I think you would like Joel Rosenberg's weblog and his book. In the book he describes many "terrorists" who come to know Jesus and have a change of heart. The book is called Inside the Revolution by Joel C. Rosenberg.


I haven't read it yet but know exactly what you are talking about. I'm really interested in reading it.

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God has blessed America because we were "One Nation Under God." Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.


But that isn't exactly what I was saying. I'm saying, instead of claiming that God is on our side as a justification for our national policies, shouldn't we "wonder whether we are on God's side", as Abraham Lincoln once famously asked.

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The Old Testament is full of orders by God to go to war. I believe the same God wrote both the Old and New Testaments.


Yes, God commanded Biblical Israel to go to War many times. Just like he destroyed the earth with a flood. BUT, we are NOT Biblical Israel. And God has not commanded us to war. Vengence is mine, says the Lord. (Romans 12:19) Not America's, or the President's--but God's. Roman's 12:19 says plain as day: Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Personally, I think that is enough right there. But there is so much more.

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Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


I'm not really sure if this verse has anything to do with our discussion. It mentions blood, just that we have not shed blood in resisting sin. Shedding blood can mean so much more than war.

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Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Jesus, like he was so fond of doing, was speaking metaphorically here. If you have a Bible with notes at the bottom, read them for this verse. Here are some of the examples:

John Wesley's commentary: It is plain, this is not to be taken literally. It only means, This will be a time of extreme danger.

Family New Testament notes: a figurative mode of warning the apostles that great difficulties and trials awaited them, which would require them to be like armed warriors, ready for the conflict.

Peoples New Testament notes: Not to be taken literally, but a striking way of saying that enemies upon every side will assail them.

Robertsons NT Word pictures: They are to expect persecution and bitter hostility (John 15:18-21). Jesus does not mean that his disciples are to repel force by force, but that they are to be ready to defend his cause against attack. Changed conditions bring changed needs. This language can be misunderstood as it was then.


It is more of the same from my Life Application Bible: "When Jesus said 'That is enough', he may have meant it was not time to think of using swords. In either case, the mention of a sword vividly communicated the trials they would soon face."

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You beat me to it. I would add that Jesus certainly got violent at the money-changers in the temple. He not only turned the tables downward, but probably had to beat the greedy people black and blue to do it.

Jesus was not a pacifist, but rather a man of war.


Wow. That's a heavy statement, especially that last sentence. I couldn't disagree more. I challenge you to read the words of Jesus and re-read how he acted. If you find that he was more a man of war than a man of peace, I will award you with 100 dollar check.

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Romans 13 also makes clear that the purpose of civil government is to punish evil doers.


I'd say that is one of the most often misquoted pieces of scripture around. Firs of all, let's not forget what Paul wrote just a Chapter earlier, in Romans 12.

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14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[a] Do not be conceited.17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[b]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[c] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Here Paul says you should live at peace (not war) with everyone.

Now, on to Romans 13. I have many, many things to say about Romans 13 that could possibly change your mind, but before I get into that, let me ask you a simple question. In Romans 13, it notes that we should submit to all authority. So, interpreting Romans 13 as you do, that would mean that if you lived in 1940's Germany, you would have been required to submit and defend Hitler and the Third Reich. How about Nero? Mao Tse-Tung? How about Saddam Hussein? In Romans 13, you can't cherry pick and say "well when he says 'authorities' he only means America, and of course the things we do are always just and fair."

I have more on Romans 13 if you're interested.


Lastly, I just want to get back to Jesus, what I have really wanted to do this whole time. As "Christians" we are supposed to be, quite literally, "little-Christs". We should make our life goal to consume his teachings and live exactly like him. Jesus and the Bible are filled with scriptures on peace and love, not war. Peace is a fruit of the spirit. Look up the word "peace" in your concordance, and I guarantee you, you will find that list to be as long as any other word.

Jesus was never clearer when he said "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" and when he placed clear emphasis that destroying evil might destroy good (Matt. 13: 24-30).

I think Jesus was the original "pro-lifer". No, not abortion (though I think we would have agreed with us there, too), but capitol punishment and war. I strongly believe that Jesus would have been opposed to all three. Not just because of what he said, but how he acted. When the teachers of the law brought a prostitute to Jesus and said "the law says she should be stoned" , that was capitol punishment right there. Jesus says 'He who is without sin throw the first stone.' Likewise, in the Garden when Peter attacks the soldier for trying to arrest Jesus (if there ever was reason for war, is this not it?), what does Jesus do? He says "Enough of this! Put your sword up! All who live by the sword, die by the sword! Am I leading a rebellion with swords and clubs?" Wow. That pretty much says it. It wasn't just what Jesus preached (although I think you'll find, especially in the sermon on the mount, that Jesus was pro-peace and anti-violence), but he practiced what he preached.

I can say that I am unequivocally pro-life. Life being that of an unborn child. Life being that of incarcerated criminals on death row. Life being Jihad terrorists who consider me their enemy...their enemy. So I will love them and pray for them as Jesus preached. Let us remember--it is God's job to judge, and our job to love.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:35 pm 
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I think an important distinction to make is between the individual and the civil government. Yes, we as individuals should definitely leave vengeance up to God.

I do think Romans 13 teaches that the civil government has been given authority to punish evildoers, but I don't think it gives the government free reign to do whatever it wants. I do believe in civil disobedience, though I don't think it is something to be cavalier about.

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In Romans 13, it notes that we should submit to all authority. So, interpreting Romans 13 as you do, that would mean that if you lived in 1940's Germany, you would have been required to submit and defend Hitler and the Third Reich. How about Nero? Mao Tse-Tung? How about Saddam Hussein? In Romans 13, you can't cherry pick and say "well when he says 'authorities' he only means America, and of course the things we do are always just and fair."
I don't think it only means America and I don't think we always do what is right. I definitely wouldn't have submitted to any of the dictators you listed or others.

As I stated earlier, I believe that the government is to punish evildoers and when it is doing that it has God's authority behind it. When it punishes the innocent, it is not sanctioned by God and should be resisted.

I do agree with you that we as individuals and the church should love our enemies.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Matthew 10:34 "I come to bring not peace, but a sword"

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a warrior"

I do agree with the statement that God is on our side only when we are on His side though. We are not Templar Knights shouting "God wills it!" to justify ourselves. Rather we are servants who follow His will.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:32 pm 
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FirstCoastTerp wrote:
I think an important distinction to make is between the individual and the civil government. Yes, we as individuals should definitely leave vengeance up to God.

I do think Romans 13 teaches that the civil government has been given authority to punish evildoers, but I don't think it gives the government free reign to do whatever it wants. I do believe in civil disobedience, though I don't think it is something to be cavalier about.

As I stated earlier, I believe that the government is to punish evildoers and when it is doing that it has God's authority behind it. When it punishes the innocent, it is not sanctioned by God and should be resisted.

I do agree with you that we as individuals and the church should love our enemies.


You don't think a war (any war) punishes the innocent? Want to know what American bombs are like to Iraqi civilians? Think September 11. Think the Oklahoma City bombing. Seriously, think about the war solely from the viewpoint of an Iraqi Christian. Here you are being bombed by another country when your country did nothing to the other one. Not only that, but the country is claiming this is an "evil vs. good" battle and God is on their side. Sound familiar? Sound exactly like 9/11?

Want to know something interesting you might not know? Timothy McVeigh, who was the perpetrator of the Oklahoma City bombings, was a US Army veteran. McVeigh was motivated to perform these bombings as a protest to the US government to show how the pain and suffering and the killing of civilians looks on the home front. McVeigh was saying--this is what war we are waging looks like in other countries. He said "I am sorry these people had to lose their lives. But that's the nature of the beast. It's understood going in what the human toll will be" and "If there is a hell, then I'll be in good company with a lot of fighter pilots who also had to bomb innocents to win the war."

McVeigh was a monster and the whole situation is a tragedy, but he was making a point, and one that each American should at least ponder or wrestle with.

But you are on to something. After I gave the example about Hitler, you realized there is more to the passage. Jesus' life was radical and one big anti-government protest. When Jesus proclaimed to be God, this was very, very risky. At that time, Caesar was God. There was no other. To claim otherwise warranted death. But Jesus' is saying Caesar has no authority in comparison to God! Like you just realized, Romans 13 was meant to teach Christians, "obey the law...unless that law disobeys God's laws". As Christians, we should obey the authorities, but remember that our ultimate authority is God, and there is none higher.

What should be different from individuals and the Government. Government is run by individuals. Why should it act any different or be held to a different standard?

Chadballer wrote:
Matthew 10:34 "I come to bring not peace, but a sword"

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a warrior"


These are again blind quotes used to justify war that are often misquoted. In the Matthew verse, Jesus was using another metaphor. If you go back and read the "title" of that section, it says "Jesus Prepares the Disciples for Persecution". The "sword" is again a metaphor for the coming resistance they will face. This verse is very similar to Jesus saying In this world you will have troubles. There will be tough times, and that Christians are not immune.

The Exodus verse was actually a song that Moses and the Israelites sang just after God had parted the Seas and then destroyed Pharaoh's entire army. It is not hard to see why they would call God their "warrior".

Besides, I've already touched on this issue. God has the right to be vengeful. God creates life and can take it away if he sees fit. Humans (yes, even Americans) do not have that luxury. Americans do not create life, but have a nasty habit of taking it away, in more than one way.


I have still yet to find a single argument against peace and for war. Surely you do not doubt that "peace" is the opposite of "war", and that Jesus is "The Prince of Peace"?

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Yemeni cleric calls for killing US civilians

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Quote:
CAIRO (AP) — A U.S.-born cleric who has encouraged Muslims to kill American soldiers called for the killing of U.S. civilians in his first video released by a Yemeni offshoot of al-Qaeda, providing the most overt link yet between the radical preacher and the terror group.


Muslims hate Jews and Christians. There sole purpose in life is to kill us and convert the world to Islam. I have several young grandchildren. I will fight until death to protect them from monsters that want to kill them both physically and spiritually.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:50 pm 
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After I gave the example about Hitler, you realized there is more to the passage.
Actually, I didn't realize this after your post, my thoughts on this were fairly well formed prior to this discussion.

You started this thread asking some legitimate questions so I decided to engage in the discussion but as this is unfolding it seems you are more bent on being argumentative and condescending than having an honest dialogue.

I'm not offended that you don't share my views on this topic or are challenging what I believe, but I do think you need to season your posts with some more grace and humility.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:19 pm 
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GrannyT wrote:
Yemeni cleric calls for killing US civilians

Short clip from article:
Quote:
CAIRO (AP) — A U.S.-born cleric who has encouraged Muslims to kill American soldiers called for the killing of U.S. civilians in his first video released by a Yemeni offshoot of al-Qaeda, providing the most overt link yet between the radical preacher and the terror group.


Muslims hate Jews and Christians. There sole purpose in life is to kill us and convert the world to Islam. I have several young grandchildren. I will fight until death to protect them from monsters that want to kill them both physically and spiritually.


I see what you are saying. And as humans it is very natural for us to want blood. Just as a father has every right to be absolutely crushed and want revenge when his daughter is raped. But the Bible teaches forgiveness. I already gave the example of the apostle Paul. He was a Christian killer and probably similar to this al-Qaeda group. But no soul is unsavable and some can go on to be some of the greatest Christians ever--just as Paul.

However, its extremely misguided to say "Muslims hate Jews and Christians". Its a common mistake to lump this religion to terrorism, but it couldn't be more mistaken. I don't know if you've ever heard this analogy, but Jihad Terrorist are to Muslim as ___________ is to Christianity. Do you know what the blank is? Its the KKK. A radical Christian group that uses the Bible to condone all they do. I hope you'll agree that not all Christians hate all over races and religions.


FirstCoastTerp wrote:
Quote:
After I gave the example about Hitler, you realized there is more to the passage.
Actually, I didn't realize this after your post, my thoughts on this were fairly well formed prior to this discussion.

You started this thread asking some legitimate questions so I decided to engage in the discussion but as this is unfolding it seems you are more bent on being argumentative and condescending than having an honest dialogue.

I'm not offended that you don't share my views on this topic or are challenging what I believe, but I do think you need to season your posts with some more grace and humility.


You're right. I just re-read the post and it sounded arrogant. I did not mean to come off that way. I apologize. My point was that you brought up Romans 13, which says "Submit to all authorities." But you agree that we shouldn't submit to Hitler or Nero or Hussein. The point is--we should only submit to their authority if the authority agrees with God on that issue. Clearly, you agree?

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Quote:
My point was that you brought up Romans 13, which says "Submit to all authorities." But you agree that we shouldn't submit to Hitler or Nero or Hussein. The point is--we should only submit to their authority if the authority agrees with God on that issue. Clearly, you agree?
Yes, I agree.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:13 am 
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We should ask God to bless our country - just as we should ask God to bless everything really. And to not recognize that God has blessed our country would be ungrateful.

I'm struggling to understand how the above is connected with the idea that everything we do is fine because God blesses America therefore He is always on our side? Your question reminds me of the one wondering if it's right to pray for a particular sports team to win - I believe it is not black & white, but instead depends on how you ask & what your intention is.

Lincoln had the right idea - esp. faced with the worst kind of a war where we were fighting & killing our own countrymen - which in essence would be 'may our efforts be guided by the Lord & so become a blessing to Him'. If that is what one intends by asking God to bless America, then He would not be offended.

The Jewish understanding of the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" - to argue otherwise is to say that God ordered His people to break His Divinely ordained Commandments by ordering them to kill certain of their enemies - which would be an impossibility. God could not & would not ever command His children to sin.

WWII makes the most convenient example for this discussion about war: Nazi Germany was an aggressor. They were invading other countries to take possession illegitimately - lying in their dealings, stealing, killing not just the innocent civilians but also soldiers who were only rightfully defending their country & their people. Clearly their intention was to go as far & take as much as they could get away with until eventually they had it all.

Defending life - even if it requires the taking of a life to do so - is the difference between what amounts to justifiable homicide vs. murder.

My DH once had a woman come in for an anti-anxiety prescription because she was still struggling to cope with having to kill a man. He had broken into her home & she had a gun & warned him to leave or she would shoot. He was clearly strung out on drugs, had a knife in his hand, & continued to approach her with clearly evil intentions.

So she had no choice but to shoot him to protect her own life as well as that of her daughter who was also in the house. Would you argue that Jesus would have wanted her to permit the evil to happen? Or that it was a lack of faith for her to use a gun instead of relying on God to keep her (& her daughter) from 'dashing a foot against a stone' as it were? Her intention was not to kill that man, but to save her life & her daughter's - do you see the moral difference that intent makes?

Remember when John the Baptist came calling on the people to repent & be baptized - the people asked him what they needed to do to live a life pleasing to God.
Luke 3 [14] Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

And when the Lord healed the centurion's servant, He did not say "Go & soldier no more". Instead He admired the man's great faith & held him up as an example worthy of emulation. While that is not a direct sign of approval, since it was the soldier's faith rather than his occupation, still I am hard-pressed to see the same scenario take place if a pimp had come to the Lord to heal one of the girls from his stable, KWIM?


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:12 am 
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FirstCoastTerp wrote:
Quote:
My point was that you brought up Romans 13, which says "Submit to all authorities." But you agree that we shouldn't submit to Hitler or Nero or Hussein. The point is--we should only submit to their authority if the authority agrees with God on that issue. Clearly, you agree?
Yes, I agree.


Then I guess you would also agree that using Romans 13 as a support for war could not be valid unless we were certain that God was on our side, and that's not what we are to assume, but to be sure that we are on his side.

Quote:
We should ask God to bless our country - just as we should ask God to bless everything really. And to not recognize that God has blessed our country would be ungrateful.

I'm struggling to understand how the above is connected with the idea that everything we do is fine because God blesses America therefore He is always on our side?


I think you are also misinterpreting what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, its wrong (not to mention bad theology) to assume God is on our side. It is wrong to go to war and just say "God Bless America" to justify our killing.

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WWII makes the most convenient example for this discussion about war: Nazi Germany was an aggressor. They were invading other countries to take possession illegitimately - lying in their dealings, stealing, killing not just the innocent civilians but also soldiers who were only rightfully defending their country & their people. Clearly their intention was to go as far & take as much as they could get away with until eventually they had it all.


Then you would say "loving your enemies" (as Jesus instructs) only applies to certain situations? As I mentioned already, the incident with Peter in the Garden. Peter picked up the sword to protect Jesus from the Roman Soldiers. Jesus clearly tells Peter to put up the sword and "those who live by the sword will die by the sword". Jesus was dying not only for his friends, but for his enemies. After all, Jesus didn't say "Greater Love has no one than this: to kill those who oppress.

And its funny you should mention Hitler...

"Thus I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." --Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Even Adolf Hitler claims to do the work of God. That's what I'm railing against--using God as a justification for our national policies. Again--bad theology.

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Would you argue that Jesus would have wanted her to permit the evil to happen?


I wouldn't "argue" that, but I will show you where the Bible says it. "Do not repay evil for evil" 1 Peter 3:9.

But I will agree with you that this is a very tough situation. However I do not believe Jesus would have ever condoned killing a man. Often, criminals are dependent on the predictability of their victims. What do they say is the best thing to do when becoming a victim of a crime? Do something completely out of the ordinary. Whatever it takes.

Even Dietrich Bonhoeffer (the man who plotted to kill Hitler) thought what he was doing was evil and a sin. He didn't ask God's blessing, only his mercy.


I'm not sure how the other two passages are a justification for war or how they relate.


You can all bring war justifications to me all day. You can bring out pieces of the Bible about war and soldiers (probably mostly from the Old Testament), but that still doesn't answer the fundamental question. Was Jesus against war? With the passages I've given you, I don't understand how you could think he was not. Love you enemies. That's enough right there. But Jesus' life and teachings all reflected peace, not war.

Instead of bringing me a justification for war, try telling me how the things Jesus said are not anti-war. Do you think these terrorists are beyond saving?

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:39 am 
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Was Jesus against war? With the passages I've given you, I don't understand how you could think he was not. Love you enemies. That's enough right there. But Jesus' life and teachings all reflected peace, not war.

Instead of bringing me a justification for war, try telling me how the things Jesus said are not anti-war. Do you think these terrorists are beyond saving?


That is the problem with your post. It is full of the complex question fallacy. The complex question fallacy is committed when a question is asked (a) that rests on a questionable assumption, and (b) to which all answers appear to endorse that assumption.

As Ken pointed out earlier, you didn't come here with a question, but rather for a fight. This is hinting that you already settled on the answer, and will not be swayed.

We have already given you the answers you seek; you have just rejected them.
Not to mention that your treating us like 7th grade schoolchildren too. Please be more respectful of the adults in this forum.

I might add also that Jesus was interested more in the individual behavior, rather than what the government should do. A few people all that time tried to get him involved in politics, and He wouldn't take the bait. He had a mission on earth, and that was all that mattered to him. You must make your arguments in that framework, or you aree just guessing what he would have done.

Jesus, however, implicitely endorsed His Father's actions in the Old Testament, which int today's world, would amount to being an accessory.

Christians have a duty to fight evil in all of its forms, from guiding a lost soul back to the light, to defending other souls from a lost soul that wishes to snuff their light out.

Jesus isn't the "hippie" Messiah that Hollywood would like to portray, but was rather a violent man in whatever he did.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:27 am 
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dking6 wrote:
You can all bring war justifications to me all day. You can bring out pieces of the Bible about war and soldiers (probably mostly from the Old Testament), but that still doesn't answer the fundamental question. Was Jesus against war? With the passages I've given you, I don't understand how you could think he was not. Love you enemies. That's enough right there. But Jesus' life and teachings all reflected peace, not war.

Instead of bringing me a justification for war, try telling me how the things Jesus said are not anti-war. Do you think these terrorists are beyond saving?

The very question is unanswerable, and to think that anyone has the exact answer is naive. I don't know of any passage where Jesus specifically condemns or supports all war.

As for the terrorists, what do you propose that we do with them then? Do we just sit here and wait until they do their deed then move on? Or should governments seek them out in order to protect innocent lives? It is not the governments duty to make people repent and to save them. It is the individuals duty. I think this is where Ken was saying that the individual and the government are two different entities.

There really is no concrete evidence, and each side can make a solid argument. War is certainly justifiable in the eyes of humans, and I also believe intent plays a major role, but it is one of those questions to put on your list to ask God when you meet him.

And while it is good to wonder about your faith and to challenge it, I am not sure why this thread was made if you state your position then won't back down from it. I agree with Ken that it is argumentative.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:40 am 
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Why did Jesus come to earth? Was it to show the way of Peace, merely, or to bring peace to our hearts?

Jesus came as the incarnate God/Man, to present the Gospel of peace, yet He himself was, He knew, going to be very divisive. He came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, concerning Him. Matthew's Gospel shows His inauguration into public ministry as fulfillment of this prophecy based on Isaiah 9:1-2:
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The land of Zebulon and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: The people who sat in darkness saw a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned. - Matthew 4:15-16


Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist was an official notice of who He was and why He had come, as well as showing that John's repentance message was preparation for Jesus, the Messiah:
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For this [John] is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah,saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the LORD, Make His paths straight...And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" - Luke 3:4b-5


The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 4-7) presented all the kingdom principles that will fully be implemented in the millennial kingdom, but presently can be in the hearts of believers. It contrasts a new way, different from the one of the scribes and Pharisees. But it did not describe how Jesus would bring salvation or His death. (He submitted to violence on the cross for our salvation.) It announced the reason He came as the Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets:
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"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled.- Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus announced His coming officially in the Jewish Temple, also, as an authority in the area of Jewish Law and religion.
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And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all. So he came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
"The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind.
To set at liberty those who are oppressed,
To preach the acceptable year of the LORD."
Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." - Luke 4:15-18


Notice that He did not complete the passage from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping in the middle of verse 2. His first coming encompassed only the preaching of the "acceptable day of the LORD." It was the healing and setting at liberty part. The rest of verse 2 reads, "the day of vengeance of our God," but He will reserve His vengeance upon all unbelief for His second coming.

"Long-suffering and the cross were associated with His first coming; judgment and a crown, with His second. - Ryrie Study Bible - NKJV footnote."

When I post as gracepraying on HuckPAC, I often say, "God forgive America so He can bless America." What that implies is also that we need to repent of our sins and turn to Him, or He will judge America.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:46 pm 
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That is the problem with your post. It is full of the complex question fallacy. The complex question fallacy is committed when a question is asked (a) that rests on a questionable assumption, and (b) to which all answers appear to endorse that assumption.


Well I would say that Jesus had many, many policies, all of which are black and white. I can't imagine how his teachings on peace and loving your enemies could be anymore clear.

Quote:
As Ken pointed out earlier, you didn't come here with a question, but rather for a fight. This is hinting that you already settled on the answer, and will not be swayed.

We have already given you the answers you seek; you have just rejected them.
Not to mention that your treating us like 7th grade schoolchildren too. Please be more respectful of the adults in this forum.


First of all, I again apologize if I've been less than civil in this forum. Either you misunderstood what I was saying or I typed something that came off wrong. I have never attacked anyone on here personally and I'm not bullying anyone.

And yes, I pretty much have my mind made up on this one. But "fight" is certainly the wrong word. I just want to get people thinking about this. Christians, being apart of the religious right, are often the first ones out for blood. I think this is sad because Jesus taught us love and peace, and to love our enemies to the extent of dying for them. To push death on anyone is rather anti-Christian in the first place. Its essentially saying "That person is beyond saving, so let's send them to hell."

Quote:
I might add also that Jesus was interested more in the individual behavior, rather than what the government should do. A few people all that time tried to get him involved in politics, and He wouldn't take the bait. He had a mission on earth, and that was all that mattered to him. You must make your arguments in that framework, or you aree just guessing what he would have done.


I see what you're saying, but couldn't disagree more. Think back to Nazi Germany. That's exactly how every Nazi soldier justified what they were doing--saying it was the Government, not them. But what's the Government? Thousands of individuals. There is no Government with individuals, and I don't think Jesus' teachings applied to just some things or people, but everything we do. The Government does not get a free pass to disobey God's laws or the teachings on Jesus. It should be treated no different than individuals. As we already discussed with Romans 13, we should only submit to authorities if they are in the boundaries of God's laws.

Quote:
Jesus, however, implicitely endorsed His Father's actions in the Old Testament, which int today's world, would amount to being an accessory.


I know you weren't here for the first part of the discussion, but this has already been addressed.

Romans 12:19: Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. (Some translations say "vengeance is mine" instead of "it is mine to avenge")

In other words, if God wants to take life, he can take life. He made it. Its not our job to do it. Using examples of God taking life in the Old Testament are invalid for that reason only.

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Christians have a duty to fight evil in all of its forms, from guiding a lost soul back to the light, to defending other souls from a lost soul that wishes to snuff their light out.


But what about the lost soul that is wishing to snuff their light out? I've already mentioned this a few times as well, but want to know a terrorist in the Bible who was wishing to snuff out the light of many Christians? Saul, who later became the Apostle Paul, and possibly the most influential Christian ever.

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Jesus isn't the "hippie" Messiah that Hollywood would like to portray, but was rather a violent man in whatever he did.


It really breaks my heart that people say Jesus was violent. Jesus was undoubtably passionate, but he never harmed a soul. How could "love you enemies" be considered violent? How could his actions in the Garden be considered violent? How could "turn the other cheek" be considered violent? How could "he who lives by the sword, dies by sword" be considered violent? Remember it is Jesus who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God!" Wow! The Sons of God! That's an amazing title for those who spread peace. That's just some of the words of wisdom from the "Prince of Peace."


Quote:
When I post as gracepraying on HuckPAC, I often say, "God forgive America so He can bless America." What that implies is also that we need to repent of our sins and turn to Him, or He will judge America.


I really like that quote! My issue is not with the phrase "God Bless America", but how it is sometimes used. Americans somehow think that we are a country that God has handpicked to be the greatest ever and he somehow loves us more than other countries, and therefore, God is on the side of all of our national policies. As I said before, that's just wrong and terrible theology.


Now, the everyone...

The general consensus on here is that I came here for a "fight". Yes, I did have my mind made up before I came here, but its not to fight. I think fights are far less civil. Plus, I would say most of us here agree on a lot of things. I hope its more of a discussion or healthy debate. I apologize to anyone who thinks I have been less than civil during this, and can assure you it wasn't intended that way.

Look, there are many complicated things in the Bible that I believe we will never understand. So why not take the easy ones and fully apply them. To me, "love you enemies and pray for those who persecute you" is as easy and straightforward as it gets. Many people will try to justify it, I'm sure. But let's not mince Jesus' words. He wasn't speaking metaphorically. He wasn't telling a story. He was preaching a sermon. In the most important sermon ever given on earth, Jesus said "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they will be called the Sons of God." Here's an important one we could all learn, including myself: "You have heard that it was said 'An eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you: Do not resist an evil person. (That says it right there!) If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."He even includes "Forgive our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors" in teaching us how to pray.

I've sat and pondered all of these points. Trust me guys: I've been hardcore Republican my whole life. I supported Bush in his wars and supported Huck in 2008. For those of you who have heard about him, I worked on Rand Paul's campaign since last summer. I've always supported a war if I thought it was just. But its now so clear to me that Jesus is telling us otherwise. I always considered the terrorists and Iraqi's my enemy and considered them "evil", but I'm told in the Bible "do not fight evil with evil", "love you enemies" and "Vengeance is God's, not mine!"

When I first began to have my doubts, like you, I was sitting here thinking to myself: "In today's time, there's no way we couldn't have war." But the more I thought about that thought, the more ridiculous it became for plenty of reasons: 1) That's saying Jesus just doesn't apply to today 2) It seems we are always in a war with someone, somewhere. It doesn't seem to stop.

Did you know that al Qaeda uses the American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan as propaganda. And guess what? It works! As tragic as it is, our bombs and attacks have killed many, many civilians. That's war for you. It just happens unintentionally. But what do you think those kids who have been orphaned by American bombs are going to do? Where will they go? Many are becoming terrorists. Fighting evil with more evil is just a never ending cycle, and will continue until we start to show some love.

I'll leave you with this. War is only just when perpetrated by God. Until then, we have no right to take any lives. We mourn the thousands of American soldiers that come back dead from these foreign countries, but let me ask you--as Christians, shouldn't we care just as much about Iraqi or Afghani casualties as American ones? Aren't their lives worth as much as ours in God's eyes? Again, just something to ponder.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:13 pm 
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dking6 wrote:
And yes, I pretty much have my mind made up on this one. But "fight" is certainly the wrong word. I just want to get people thinking about this. Christians, being apart of the religious right, are often the first ones out for blood. I think this is sad because Jesus taught us love and peace, and to love our enemies to the extent of dying for them. To push death on anyone is rather anti-Christian in the first place. Its essentially saying "That person is beyond saving, so let's send them to hell."


How you framed the question was misleading. Especially on this board we try to at least frame the context of our questions.

You use Hitler as an example and as difficult as it might seem the Bible is replete with examples of God using nations and yes even evil rulers to execute his judgement in the earth. Examples (Nebechadenezzar (sp), Cyrus etc..)


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