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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:37 pm 
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Wow, simply astonishing that someone who has such visibility would say something so STUPIDLY.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:41 pm 
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Who is this woman? What position does she hold?

Does she not realize that most modern Israelis were born there in that land? On what basis does she call their home Poland and Germany? If one's ancestors living in a land makes the present Palestinians the owners of the land, then can not the Jews also make that claim and even much more strongly?

Oh well, I suppose reason will never triumph over hatred. She seems to have an abundance of one, but not of the other.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Who is this woman? What position does she hold?


The is one of the most influential reporters in the world. She is the oldest member of the press corp. that gets to ask questions of Obama.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:33 pm 
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May 27, 2010 -- Jewish Heritage Day at the White House

Ms. Thomas, age 89, is a reporter for the Hearst chain of newspapers. She was with United Press International for 57 years.

She later posted a faux apology on her own personal website, in which she touts the virtues of "tolerance."

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:06 am 
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My respect for her has lessened quite considerably.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:12 am 
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Anti-Semite. I have no doubts about saying that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:37 am 
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I heard the basic statement about getting the h out of Palestine - which was bad enough. But to hear her expound on this, well, it was stunning.

By the way, Helen Thomas has been in the White House press corps for so long, there is footage of her asking questions of President Kennedy.

But this is so hateful, so biased, and so ignorant - she has disgraced herself with this.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Helen Thomas' comments reflect the frustration of the Palestinian people at being forced out of their land by a group of people who had not occupied that land for over a thousand years. Those people justified their claim to the land by saying that God had given it to them.

How would you feel if someone came to your front door today and told you, "I'm sorry, but you'll have to move out so this other couple can take possession. God said they should have it, not you."

On his show this evening, Mike Huckabee made reference to several chapters of Genesis as being good reason why the Israelis should hold that land. In making that statement, he showed that his support for modern-day Israel is rooted primarily in his understanding of the concept of Israel. Unfortunately for him, many Americans, including many Christians, do not share that view.

From the very beginning, "Israel" was a spiritual concept. God called Jacob "Israel" when he struggled spiritually with God in prayer and obtained God's blessing. From that point on, the Bible speaks of two Israels, the physical and the spiritual. The apostle Paul refers to physical Israel as "Israel according to the flesh" and to spiritual Israel as "Israel according to the spirit."

Physical Israel consisted of all of Jacob's physical descendants. Some of those descendants were faithful to the Lord; many were not. As the apostle Paul put it: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel." When Jesus came into this world to carry out His saving mission, most of physical Israel rejected Him. Jesus wept over unbelieving Jerusalem and pronounced God's verdict on them: "Your house is left unto you desolate."

In the midst of physical Israel was a remnant who believed God's promises and looked to Jesus as the Savior. This is the Israel of God, the Israel to whom all of God's promises applied.

Many evangelicals make the mistake of applying all passages which speak of Israel to physical Israel. As a result, they believe that God wants them to give unquestioning support to physical Israel. This is a theological confusion that should not be allowed to guide American foreign policy. I support Mike Huckabee in many of the things he says, but I cannot support him in this.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Absolutely ridiculous comment. I think she's lost all her credibility as a journalist.

This incident has motivated me to study God's Word more so that I can communicate with more intelligence on the specifics of God's covenant with Israel. But just from a common sense perspective, think of it this way:

Quote:
There are currently 55 countries in the world with a majority Muslim population. These countries total in land area about 11,643,805 miles - which is 20.25% of the total land area of the entire world. The weighted average of the Muslim population in these 55 countries is 81.49%. If you divided the total Muslim population in those countries by the total land area, you'd end up with a ratio of 101.59 Muslims per square mile.

The nation of Israel, by contrast, is the only majority Jewish state in the entire world. It has a land area of 8,522 miles - just a little smaller than the state of New Jersey - and a population of 7,282,000. What's more, 16.2% of that population is Muslim. They don't even have all that much room - if you take the total population of Israel over the size of that country, you end up with 854 people per square mile.

The question is: can't the people of Israel at least have their one country? Is that really too much to ask?



One thing I do know from Scripture is that the devil is extremely angry at Israel because God used Israel to bring His Son and therefore salvation into the world. Anti-semetism is of the devil. And there has been widespread resentment and persecution of the Jewish people long before Israel was even a country and long before there were any specific national policies to criticize. A lot of people just simply hate Israel - and this is reason why.

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A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
(Revelation 12:1-6, NIV)


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When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
(Revelation 12:13-17, NIV)


Anti-semitic hatred is extremely widespread. White supremacists and black supremacists don't seem on the surface to have a lot in common with each other. But beside the fact that their thinking is roughly identical (just substitute the names of the people who they hate), they both have a common hatred of Jews. Just like many terrorists. And just like the devil, who is ultimately influencing this and all other forms of hatred.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:34 pm 
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This certainly is an issue that is a magnet to the wacko fringe extremists on both ends of the argument. Zionism vs Jew hating seems to have as many flavors as ice cream. From genocide through all the disgusting levels of antisemitism to an equally wacko fringe view that Israel must dominate the people of the entire region and is incapable of ever being in the wrong. Equally hypocritical is the majority of "Israel supporting politicians" that clearly see no problem with giving three times as much aid collectively to those nations that seek Israel's destruction. Mike has the correct far pro Israel view and would rightly be supported by most Christians. The non-interventionists at least would not support Israel's enemies at a three-fold level compared with Israel. The majority of the politicians that give "lip service" to supporting Israel are clearly the most dangerous element of the three.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:56 am 
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mikethom1 wrote:
Helen Thomas' comments reflect the frustration of the Palestinian people

Actually...there is no such thing as a "Palestinian people". That is a common misnomer. There are Arab people who live in the land formerly called Palestine, but there is no such thing as a people group or nation called "Palestinians."
Quote:
at being forced out of their land by a group of people who had not occupied that land for over a thousand years.

Actually....there have been Jewish people living in the land the entire time. They are called Sephardic Jews.
Quote:
Those people justified their claim to the land by saying that God had given it to them.

Actually...God did give it to them. Read the Old Testament, specifically Genesis 15 (where the covenant is unilateral and unconditional), Genesis 17:7-11 (where the land is given as an "everlasting possession"); Genesis 35:12; and Exodus 33:13, where God says it will belong to the Jewish people as their "inheritance forever." Also Joshua 1:4 where the generous borders of the land given to Israel are specified (read that and be surprised!)

In I Chronicles 16:15-18, God says the land is given to Israel as a "decree," and as an "everlasting covenant."

In Jeremiah 31:35-37, God says He has never rejected Israel, despite all her failures and disobedience:
Quote:
This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.


Same thing in Jeremiah 33:24-26. God does not reject His children. Sometimes He disciplines them, but "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11).

Israel has, at times, temporarily lost possession of the Land, but never has God revoked the title to it.

In fact, God promised to restore the Jews to the land that He gave them. See Jeremiah 16:14-16 and Jeremiah 23:7-8, as well as Amos 9:14-15. In Ezekiel 36, God says,
Quote:
Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

So we see from this passage (among others) that being driven out of the land was a punishment. However... God promised to restore them to the Land, in order to bring glory to Himself and to His name, which is attached to the Jews:
Quote:
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Notice that God calls it the Jewish people's "own land."

Quote:
How would you feel if someone came to your front door today and told you, "I'm sorry, but you'll have to move out so this other couple can take possession. God said they should have it, not you."

Whether we like it or not, God's word shows that when He drives any people out of any place, He is just. It is usually to judge those people. Read the entire Old Testament. The reason there weren't more Jews living in the land called Palestine is because most of them were repeatedly driven out by various invaders and conquerors.

And by the way, the Jewish people didn't just go knocking on doors saying "Get out, this is ours now!" As they settled in the land prior to 1948, they mainly bought the land from Arabs who were scratching out an existence. During the 1948 war, it was actually the Arab leaders who told their fellow Arabs to flee to the east, because they said they were going to wipe the "Zionist entity" off the map and into the sea, and didn't want their fellow Arabs caught in the cross-fire.

To their surprise, the Israelis won that war. All the Arabs who had left their homes were then stuck in a no-man's land, controlled by Jordan. The Jordanians did nothing for them, and left them without infrastructure, schools, and barely any assistance. The nation of Israel offered them all a chance to return home and live in peace, as long as they would take an oath of loyalty and swear not to act in violence against Israel. All the Arabs who were willing to live in peace, were able to return to their homes.

After the 1967 "Six Days War," the Israelis gained control of the West Bank. That was when the Arabs living there began to be called "Palestinian refugees."

It was during that war, also, that the Israelis gained control of the Golan Heights (after Syria attacked when provoked by Egypt). The Golan Heights is a hilly region from which the Syrians used to rain down rockets and bombs, almost daily, on the Jews around the Sea of Galilee from 1949 - 1967. That is why there are bomb shelters located almost every mile in the Kinneret region (around the Galilee).

Since the Jewish people regained possession of the land, they have literally turned the desert green. They have transformed the land from a backwater desert wasteland (read Mark Twain's eye-witness description) to a verdant land which exports food and crops, and which produces some of the most valuable technology in the world. One reason why the so-called Palestinians are so angry right now is that Israel has sealed its borders with the territories. Now the Arabs have no where to work, because it's the Israelis who create jobs and have industries. Previously, Palestinian Arabs used to cross the borders each morning to get to their jobs. But now, because of the constant terror attacks, Israel has had enough, and is leaving the Palestinian Arabs to their own devices....and they are suffering. They don't produce or grow anything; they are entirely dependent upon foreign aid. In fact, when the Israelis yielded to international pressure and pulled out of the West Bank and the Gaza strip a few years ago, the Palestinian Arabs BURNED and destroyed most of the farms which the settlers left behind...where the Palestinian Arabs used to work!

And, ever since the Israelis withdrew from the West Bank and Gaza, those regions have been used as launching pads to fire rockets into Israeli towns. How long would YOU put up with Mexico firing thousands of rockets into neighborhoods in San Diego?

Quote:
On his show this evening, Mike Huckabee made reference to several chapters of Genesis as being good reason why the Israelis should hold that land. In making that statement, he showed that his support for modern-day Israel is rooted primarily in his understanding of the concept of Israel. Unfortunately for him, many Americans, including many Christians, do not share that view.

But many Christians DO share that view.
Quote:
From the very beginning, "Israel" was a spiritual concept.

I respectfully disagree. "Israel" was a real nation, descended from Jacob. It was God himself who gave him the name Israel, and the Bible makes it very clear that these descendants, the Jews, are the apple of God's eye.
Quote:
God called Jacob "Israel" when he struggled spiritually with God in prayer

Well, it was more than just struggling spiritually...since it pulled his hip out of its socket.
Quote:
and obtained God's blessing. From that point on, the Bible speaks of two Israels, the physical and the spiritual. The apostle Paul refers to physical Israel as "Israel according to the flesh" and to spiritual Israel as "Israel according to the spirit."

As believers in Christ, we are "grafted in" to the tree of Israel. But we do not replace Israel. Whether they were faithful or not, does not change the fact that the nation of Israel is still God's chosen people, and He sees them as His own "virgin daughter."
Quote:
Many evangelicals make the mistake of applying all passages which speak of Israel to physical Israel.

Not a "mistake"... there is the nation of Israel, and there is the part of the tree which is grafted in.
Quote:
As a result, they believe that God wants them to give unquestioning support to physical Israel.

Not necessarily unquestioning. That is a sweeping generalization.
Quote:
This is a theological confusion that should not be allowed to guide American foreign policy.

Actually....what better thing to base our foreign policy on than the truth, straight from God's own mouth? If the God who made the entire universe says that a tiny strip of desert sand should belong to a small people group who matter to Him, I think we should believe Him and do what He says.

What you're promoting is a common theological confusion called "replacement theology," and I respectfully -- and vigorously -- disagree.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:38 am 
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All-in-for-Mike: Well said. Good response.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:45 am 
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Awesome response, All-in-for-Mike!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:40 am 
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I will respectfully disagree with All-in-for Mike and those of you who hold to that viewpoint. Just as the book of Romans is clear when it comes to homosexuality being a sin, it is clear that “they are not all Israel who are of Israel.” (Romans 6:1) God in His grace chose the nation of Israel, out of no merit of their own, to be the instrument from which He would carry out His plan of salvation. In this New Testament era He wants us to focus on spreading that plan of salvation to the world; the devil is happy if our attention is diverted from sharing the one and only way sinners can be grabbed out of his clutches to a focus on helping those who have rejected that life-saving message so that they may have a certain plot of land on this earth.

In the Old Testament there were many shadows pointing to the Savior; in the New Testament the “body is of Christ.” God’s message to the world is “Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one can come to the Father except through Him.” God does not want the message which assures believers of a place in heaven to be watered down by having New Testament Christians support those people who refuse to believe the heart and core of that message. That good news is much more important than having any land on this earth. That message is for all nations, including modern-day Jews whose rejection is not final and who can still be “grafted in”. (Romans 11:23) Great focus is laid on the shadow of the Old Testament physical nation of Israel. That is a smoke screen to hide a clear view of the body of Christ who is the Light of the world.

Having said all that, I do believe that it is important to support a democratic nation in that part of the world. Whether or not to support Israel for religious reasons is a whole different matter and should be left out of a political discussion involving Americans with varying religious viewpoints. There are many present and potential backers of Mike Huckabee who have a variety of religious beliefs. (I guess it all depends on what the purpose of this cite and Mike's show is. I hope nothing, which might be avoided, will stand in the way of his being our nation's leader.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:15 am 
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mikethom1 wrote:
Helen Thomas' comments reflect the frustration of the Palestinian people at being forced out of their land by a group of people who had not occupied that land for over a thousand years. Those people justified their claim to the land by saying that God had given it to them.

How would you feel if someone came to your front door today and told you, "I'm sorry, but you'll have to move out so this other couple can take possession. God said they should have it, not you."

On his show this evening, Mike Huckabee made reference to several chapters of Genesis as being good reason why the Israelis should hold that land. In making that statement, he showed that his support for modern-day Israel is rooted primarily in his understanding of the concept of Israel. Unfortunately for him, many Americans, including many Christians, do not share that view.

From the very beginning, "Israel" was a spiritual concept. God called Jacob "Israel" when he struggled spiritually with God in prayer and obtained God's blessing. From that point on, the Bible speaks of two Israels, the physical and the spiritual. The apostle Paul refers to physical Israel as "Israel according to the flesh" and to spiritual Israel as "Israel according to the spirit."

Physical Israel consisted of all of Jacob's physical descendants. Some of those descendants were faithful to the Lord; many were not. As the apostle Paul put it: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel." When Jesus came into this world to carry out His saving mission, most of physical Israel rejected Him. Jesus wept over unbelieving Jerusalem and pronounced God's verdict on them: "Your house is left unto you desolate."

In the midst of physical Israel was a remnant who believed God's promises and looked to Jesus as the Savior. This is the Israel of God, the Israel to whom all of God's promises applied.

Many evangelicals make the mistake of applying all passages which speak of Israel to physical Israel. As a result, they believe that God wants them to give unquestioning support to physical Israel. This is a theological confusion that should not be allowed to guide American foreign policy. I support Mike Huckabee in many of the things he says, but I cannot support him in this.


Ummm....so where exactly is the Jewish homeland anyways? Somehow I missed that in your comment.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:17 pm 
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The term “Palestinian” was never an ethnic designation, but rather a geographic one. There never has been a “Palestinian People.” To humiliate the Jews, the Roman emperor Hadrian renamed the land, “Palestina,” after the Jewish revolt led by Shimon bar-Kokhba early in the 2nd century AD. The city of Jerusalem was also renamed “Aeolia Capitolina.” The former name held; the latter did not. We longer call Jerusalem “Aeolia Capitolina,” but for some strange reason we do refer to the geographic land of Israel/Judea as “Palestine.”

When the UN voted to partition the region of “Palestine” in 1947, there was no mention of a “Palestinian People;” only the Jews and Arabs living in Palestine. When the Jews won the War for Independence in 1948, the Arab inhabitants -- who fled at the behest of the invading Arab forces -- were stuck in what we now call the “West Bank.” The territory was controlled by Jordan, an Arab state. Jordan and the surrounding Arab nations (most of them oil-rich) could have created a state for these refugees if they had wanted to at any point between 1949 and 1967. They did not.

The refugees lived in poverty and squalor until 1967, when Israel won the Six Day War, and inherited the “refugee problem.” Israel actually did much over the next 20 years to improve the living conditions. The surrounding Arab nations only then invented the myth of a “Palestinian People” oppressed by Israeli “occupiers” in order to weaken Israel internationally.

When Israel’s Arab enemies failed to drive her from the land in 1947, 1967, 1973, and 1982, they finally realized they needed to change strategies. They began to negotiate to try to obtain the West Bank and other territories in order to strengthen their hand against Israel. The new strategy since 1991 has been to get what they can diplomatically, virtually cut the land of Israel in half, render it militarily indefensible, and then finish her off.

In another post, when I have more time, I'd like to discuss the many prophecies in Scripture that have been fulfilled in the Jews' regaining possession of their land.

I don't support absolutely every single decision that the Jewish people make with regard to their handling of their Arab neighbors. But I would state categorically that in the light of their constant state of being attacked and murdered (including busloads of school children being hijacked and murdered) at every turn, I think they've showed remarkable restraint over the years.

Another thing I'd like to say is this: It seems like an awful lot of political liberals, and religious liberals, are the ones calling for the Jews to get out. That alone should give one pause.

But for now, since I have guests arriving any minute, I'll close with this. We all know that there are many different views, held by intelligent people, on controversial subjects such as this one. I think it speaks a lot for Mike Huckabee that his supporters can disagree respectfully, and discuss things calmly and intelligently. Witness the 21-page, thoughtful and intelligent discussion about old-earth creation vs. 6-day literal creation, which "evolved" :wink: after an unrelated topic on HA about Mike writing the forward to S.E. Cupp's new book.

I don't think a thoughtful and mutually respectful discussion of these issues will deter potential followers of Mike Huckabee. But in terms of Mike's vocal and courageous support of modern Israel, he is adamant and unwavering. So if that is a deal breaker for anyone, no discussion of it here is going to have any impact...Mike's position is well-known. He does not even support a two-state solution, which he calls "unworkable" and "unacceptable."

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:07 pm 
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In response:

First, let me say that my comments may have provided too little information, leading you to assume that I hold to a “replacement” theology. I assume the term means that New Testament Gentile Christians have taken over (“replaced”) Old Testament Israel’s claim on God’s promises. It’s not quite that simple. Yes, New Testament Gentile Christians are part of Abraham’s children and have a share in the promises that God made to Abraham (Gal 3:6-9).

At the same time, however, the apostle Paul makes a distinction between two categories of Abraham’s children. On the one hand, he speaks of “the fullness of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:25), that is, the full number of the Gentiles who would be brought to faith in Christ and thus be grafted into God’s family. On the other hand, he speaks of “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). As I understand the scriptures, Abraham’s children consist of two groups, “the fullness of the Gentiles” and “the Israel of God.”

But who are “the Israel of God”? Are they all the physical descendants of Jacob? Is one automatically “in” with God simply by vitue of being born into a Jewish family? Paul addresses this question in detail in Romans 9-11. As you read through those chapters you can clearly see that Paul’s heart is full of anxiety regarding the eternal future of his fellow Jews. “I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart” over the fact that so many of his fellow Jews continued to reject Jesus as the Messiah (Rom 9:2). Of all people on earth, his fellow Jews should have been the first to welcome Jesus and believe in Him. After all, God had given them His law and the temple worship ceremonies and the promises, all of which centered in and pointed forward to Christ. What a shame it would be for them to receive all these special privileges from God and then lose out on the salvation that God offers only in connection with Christ!

But that is exactly what the unbelieving Jews were in danger of doing – losing their salvation. Why? Because “they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom 9:6). In other words, just being a physical descendant of Jacob is not enough. Being a physical descendant of Jacob may make one an Israelite according to human genealogical records, but not in God’s book. Only by faith in Jesus as the Christ does a Jew become a member of God’s Israel.

And so Paul says at the beginning of Romans 10: “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.” Paul wants his fellow Jews to be saved. He knows that they will not be saved just by being zealous for God. The only thing that saves is a knowledge of Jesus as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Only the righteousness that is found in Christ will save – their own righteousness won’t.

Paul was very concerned that his fellow Jews would lose out on their salvation. His anxiety for them was so great that he says: “I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh” (Rom 9:3). Paul obviously did not think that every Jew would be saved.

What, then, does Paul mean when he says in Romans 11:26: “And so all Israel will be saved”? In light of his great concerned that a goodly number of his fellow Jews might be eternally lost, it makes no sense to interpret this passage as though he somehow forgot that some Jews might be lost and now believes that every Jew will be saved. This passage only makes sense if we understand that in the mind of God there are two Israels. There is that large group called Israel which consists of all physical descendants of Jacob. And then there is a smaller group which consists only of those descendants of Jacob who believe in Jesus as their Savior from sin. It is this latter group that is truly “the Israel of God.” It is this latter group of whom Paul speaks when he says, “All Israel will be saved.” Concerning those Jews who reject Jesus the Bible says, “He who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This condemnation will fall on unbelieving Jews as surely as it will fall on unbelieving Gentiles, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), and in God’s eyes “there is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28).

Any view of God’s Old Testament promises to “Israel” that ignores what the New Testament says about “Israel” is a view that may have the superficial appearance of being drawn from Scripture, but in actuality comes to Scripture with preconceived notions and misrepresents the interpretation of “Israel” that God Himself has provided.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:49 pm 
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Given that we are a secular nation, though we are founded on Judeo-Christian principles, I found it troubling that we might be basing our foreign policy on someone's religious beliefs. I am a devout Christian, but if my religious beliefs could determine our foreign policy, then so could a devout Buddhist, Muslim or atheist holding an office of leadership on those matters in our country.

So I looked up the issue of Israel vs. Palestine. Jews are not saints, but the Palestinian Arabs are not innocent victims by a long shot. Long before their war for nationhood, the Jews living in that land were being persecuted by the Palestinian Arabs. The Arabic-Muslim countries were some of the most anti-semitic on earth - and they still are - apparently it is consistent with the teaching of Islam. This was part of the Jews drive to statehood - self defense.

The UN tried to resolve the conflict by dividing the land between the Jews & the Palestinian Arabs and giving them a political geographical separation as well as their own territory to claim. The Palestinian Arabs rejected this & systematically attacked the Israelis in an effort to "wipe them off the face of the earth". The Israelis drove them back & ended up taking more land from them in the process.

It is only after the failure of decades of that hateful effort that the Palestinian Arabs began trying to negotiate their way into Israeli territory - but anyone who thinks that they are trading their enmity towards Israel for land is ignoring history.

Anyway, this is obviously a simplistic version of the conflict, but as far as I'm concerned, the Palestinians threw away their legitimate opportunity to land & statehood when they spit on the UN's offer & attacked the Jews. The Jews had the right to defend themselves & it is only a very modern idea that a country should have to surrender land that it has fairly acquired by defeating a hostile country that has invaded.

The only reason the Palestinian Arabs want a settlement is because they are still determined to take back Jerusalem & wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. It is actually much like Al Qaida demanding territory within NYC as Huck said. So religious beliefs aside, our support for Israel is just according to natural law as well as rational (ie, only Democracy in the Middle East, etc).

That, and as someone pointed out earlier, if the liberals support something, it should always be examined with very heavy skepticism!



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:00 pm 
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As a Christian, I believe Israel is a spiritual and physical reality and believe God sovereignly arranged for Jews to regain Israel. However, as far as foreign policy goes, on practical grounds, it is in our best interest to support Israel.

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