What a great non-answer to QuoVadis's question.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.

Evidently Kissinger's view resonates quite well here.
Guess you feel the loss of thousands of lives was worth it and necessary to just get OBL.
Someone justify that we could not have gotten OBL without such high loss of lives..
That's what I'm saying.

_________________
"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." ~ Ronald Reagan


You say "Conspiracy Theorist"?? Call me Agenda Analyst.

I have been feeling for over a year that there needs to come a point where we re-evaluate how involved we need to be in foreign conflicts that don't involve a direct threat to our national security. If you wanted to you could make a case to invade several countries based on indirect threats or perceived threats in the future. For a long time after Vietnam the conventional thought among the political right was that we did the right thing by getting involved in Vietnam, but we did the wrong thing in how we prosecuted the war. I believe it was wrong to have gotten involved period. I am starting to wonder if we'll not feel the same way about Iraq in 20 years.

After 9/11 I do believe we had to go into Afghanistan and take out those training camps and kill or capture as many terrorists and Taliban as possible. I'm not sure though that nation building there is going to work out for us very well in the long-term.

I'm not a Ron Paul isolationist or a Pat Buchanan type of isolationist. I believe we've got to be very involved with helping Israel, and we can't just close ourselves off within our borders and pretend that what happens in other parts of the world doesn't affect us. At the same time though I believe we've got to be a lot more discriminating before we commit the lives of our military members and put them in harms way. An entire generation of of our military has been tremendously affected by the wars we've been in for almost 9 years now. The incredible toll it has taken on their personal health, mental health, and the lives of their families has been great. It has cost us 100's of billions of dollars at a time when our greatest national security risk is our debt. China has grown stronger as we've grown weaker, and it's been due to the directions of our respective economies.

I believe a lot of others are starting to re-think how they feel about these issues as well. I may not agree with a lot of what Ron Paul says regarding foreign policy, and others may not either, but I guarantee you he is going to resonate much better this time around then he did last time. Last time he was basically an asterisk, but this time he could be up around 7% in some states. That's not enough to win anything or be a factor at the convention, but it is enough votes to help determine who does win. I'd like to see Huckabee get out in front of some of these issues and assure voters that there is going to be a much higher threshold when it comes to committing military force under his administration.

melopa, I am a former Air Force brat. My father was a lifer - 26 yrs. Yeah, our military is used & abused. Not a newsflash.

But there's room for more views than either the Henry Kissinger or Ron Paul extremes of the spectrum. And while there is much worthy of debate in W.'s decisions post-9/11 (there is much that I was uncomfortable with), claiming that those soldiers died needlessly without making some effort to substantiate such an accusation is unjust. There is reasonable evidence that our soldiers took the battle to the enemy's backyard making civilians here at home safer - drawing the attacks away from our homeland, so to speak.

No one is defending Kissinger here, but if you're going to assert that our people have died in vain, it would be decent to at least explain what the alternative was.

WalterCan, I am inclined to agree with your perspective. Our foreign policy certainly needs a more rational & balanced approach.

And I believe that Ron Paul has chosen to run for POTUS again in order to influence the national political discussion as much as he can - and to raise money.

For the most part, I happen to agree with you. I think it's pretty clear now that many of those who were involved with the planning of the Iraq part of the war on terror had a different agenda than simply going after Bin Laden and his fellow travelers.

_________________
Most people believe what they see, the Left see's what it believes.....

Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.

Proverbs 24:17-18 (NIV)

They never die or are wounded in vain as they have answered the call.
What needs to be purged are the Kissinger and Brzezinski, meaning elitist influence of organizations like the CFR and Trilateral Commission on our foreign policy.

I think Walter said what I felt in a more measured way.
I just think we need to use a lot more wisdom before committing troops everywhere.

Our involvments can be intelligently trimmed down starting now or
If we suffer a currency collapse all will abruptly end.
Not a good scenario for our deployed military or our country.
I'm not lockstep with Ron Paul here, but because the pendulum has swung so far that we have over 700 bases worldwide in over 100 countries, my positions are offset somewhat by the extreme, unsustainable foreign policy being pursued.


Our hyper-involvment in so many conflicts actually leaves us more vulnerable and less safe. Not to mention our monetary policy and a potential currency crash.
The dollar is already on the road to no longer being the world reserve currency.
That coupled with no longer having the means of manufacturing strategic components could cripple our capabilities in the future.

And you know RP did resonate with the military last time getting more donations from them than all the other Republican Presidential candidates combined in the last election. He can't win, but his voice presents a much needed counterbalance to the direction our unsustainable foreign policy is taking us to today.

_________________
"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." ~ Ronald Reagan


You say "Conspiracy Theorist"?? Call me Agenda Analyst.

War is terrible, and we will always hate it after the fact. In this fallen world, yes, it will be necessary at times to keep the bullies from other countries from taking our freedoms and sovereignty. We did not ask for the war on terror. We were attacked, and we found after the first bombing of the World Trade Center that it is inadequate to counteract terrorism as a civil, criminal matter of an isolated religious terrorist group. The escalation of the war on terror, which came about with the destruction of both towers at the World Trade center, as well as the attempted destruction of our military nerve center, the Pentagon, and the apparent attempt to take out the White House and Congress were more than minor squabbles. These well-orchestrated attacks were aimed at the center of our government and our financial system, and they came close to destroying freedom and America. Planned for years, funded and organized by dangerous terrorist groups that exist still today, we now face a threat that we cannot ignore, unfortunately. They will attack us, in ever increasing numbers. We are in a fight for our lives, America. And in a fight for Western civilization.

What shall be the cost? How can we counteract such a nebulous enemy? And how, when religion is mixed in with their terrorism, do we handle the delicate issues of separating religious freedom and the peaceful (or relatively so) Muslims from those who would kill us, steal our way of life, and destroy all Jews and Christians as infidels? Like it or not, this is a spiritual battle. By extension, the goal that is truly in the hearts and minds of the enemy is the goal of the more radical Muslims--the complete destruction of Israel and America. Jihad is a basic, fundamental belief of the Muslim religion, and we are in the cross-hairs of their zealous campaign to rid the world of infidels. While Christians are taught to make friends of enemies by leading them to Christ, Muslim extremists believe in forced conversion (or carrying out God's judgment and killing) at the point of a sword.

Much of this war on terror is being waged through intelligence and special forces, such as those that took down Osama bin Laden. These can be effective, but probably not enough. Much can be waged with computer skills, such as the Israeli computer virus that is keeping the Iranian nuclear centrifuges out of service. But the tremendous costs of war need to be brought down. Huckabee insists in his new book, A Simple Government, that we must quit trying to make our military into a social service, of building communities in hostile lands and trying to instill democracy on peoples who have no understanding or appreciation for freedoms we know. (That might better be the call of missionaries, etc. The desire our nation has for freedom was birthed by the Christian gospel, which was responsible for the very concept of freedom for all.) And the brave men and women who have given so much of life and limb, protecting our freedoms need to be honored and cared for properly, Huckabee insists. The lack of care, medically, psychologically, and financially in the aftermath of their sacrifice, is a shame upon our nation.

Certainly, the cost of war may be unsustainable as it is now being fought, often wastefully. But the cost of freedom has always been great. And now with an enemy numbering in the millions of radical, militant Muslims, we are in a heap of trouble. We need the Providence of God on our side. That is not forthcoming without a revival and repentance of our people for turning from Him. That is the neglect of Americans that I fear the most. For we have a just God. But He is merciful, too. In a spiritual battle our first line of defense needs to be repentance and prayer for God to be merciful.

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The military gathered proof that Sadam was working on restarting his chemical warfare program. There are still thousands of documents obtained that have not even been translated yet. I have also seen the satelite videos of tractor trailers removing items from Iraq. No one seems to know what they were transporting or why the borders were not secured so they couldn't take it out of the country. Wikileaks also confirmed WMD's were found in Iraq.

http://www.examiner.com/public-safety-i ... s-invasion

If Saddam did not have WMD in Iraq, then explain how thousands of Iraqi's were killed by WMD. Obviously, that makes no sense at all. How could Saddam have killed all of those innocent men, women, and children with WMD, if there were no WMD? We know that he had them, because we know that he used them.

How can you assume that the warheads of the mobile SCUD missiles that were massed on the western border of Iraq, aimed at Israel (who had taken several hits in the previous Gulf War), did not have WMD packed inside of them? Since Israel already said that they would retaliate if they were hit again, and since we know that could have started World War III, it seems obvious that we did the right thing by finally putting an end to Saddam's thumbing his nose at all of the UN Resolutions and everything that he agreed to at the end of the first Gulf War. He only needed to give an accounting of these WMD that he obviously did have. He wouldn't. Instead, he chose to attempt to shoot down our pilots who were manning the no-fly zone. Remember, that this murderous thug had Kuwait invaded, had its people tortured and murdered, and then amassed the 4th largest army in the world on the border of Saudi Arabia. Have you forgotten?

_________________
http://www.RickSantorum.com/
http://www.JimBridenstine.com/
Mike Huckabee Book Store

I think we strayed off the path a bit here haven't we?

Who is winning the War on Terror? The United States? Or the terrorists?

•United States 60%
•Terrorists 18%

All things considered, has the war in Iraq been worth fighting? Or not?

Among Republicans

•Worth fighting 56%
•Not worth fighting 26%

All things considered, has the war in Afghanistan been worth fighting? Or not?

Among Republicans

•Worth fighting 55%
•Not worth fighting 28%

Was the decision by the United States to bury Osama bin Laden at sea the right decision? Or the wrong decision?

•Right decision 56%
•Wrong decision 25%

Is Al-Qaeda still a threat to America? Or no longer a threat?

•Still a threat 86%
•No longer a threat 5%

Is it appropriate to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Or is it insensitive?

Among Republicans

•Appropriate 71%
•Insensitive 16%

http://argojournal.blogspot.com/

_________________




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To anyone here who has the Dennis Prager show in your area, or if you're near a computer and can listen to his show online, he's devoting the 2pm to 3pm time of his show to the topic of whether it's right or not to rejoice over something like the killing of a Bin Laden type individual. I think you'll find his point of view insightful whether you agree or not with his conclusions.

As to the poll above regarding support for the Iraq portion of the war on terror, all I can say is that talk radio did a very good job of ramping up support for that.

_________________
Most people believe what they see, the Left see's what it believes.....

Talk radio does not have the power you think over Republican folks, either in a poll or at the poll booth.

Talk radio hated BOTH McCain and Huckabee last time, too.. but look who finished a strong 1-2 for our party.

_________________




Please click^ on the tank and join up today

Considering that McCain, Huck and Mittens all had a pretty similiar stance on Iraq, I'm not sure you can equate the impact talk radio has on all subjects evenly. But that a RINO like Romney could garner top tier type support among GOP voters might give credence to how much imact talk radio does have.........

_________________
Most people believe what they see, the Left see's what it believes.....

If 'Talk Radio' has the impact you think, Romney (who they adored) wouldn't have dropped out so soon and finished 3rd to Huck after outspending Huck 17 to one.

Bottom line is these numbers are right, talk radio or not:



All things considered, has the war in Iraq been worth fighting? Or not?

Among Republicans

•Worth fighting 56%
•Not worth fighting 26%



All things considered, has the war in Afghanistan been worth fighting? Or not?

Among Republicans

•Worth fighting 55%
•Not worth fighting 28%

And yes, I have family members currently fighting on both fronts.

_________________




Please click^ on the tank and join up today

Put me in the pro-Afghan camp, but as someone who thought Iraq was a good thing to do at the time, the cost in blood and treasure vs. the good that was attained thru our efforts there (and I don't deny that there was some) just doesn't add up, IMHO. The devastation that has happened to the Christian community in Iraq since Saddam was deposed has been very saddening.

_________________
Most people believe what they see, the Left see's what it believes.....

So, are you saying that with 20/20 hindsight, instead of us doing what we did and getting the results that we did, you would rather have Hussein continuing to rule Iraq today, continue shooting at our no-fly zone pilots, and possibly have attacked Israel with WMD? Keep in mind that we were not able to take out even one, single, mobile SCUD missile launcher in the 1st Gulf War, so a pre-emptive strike against them was very likely necessary, in order to succeed in taking them out in OIF (They were the first targets that we hit by US and British SOF). I know that we paid a horrible price, but I do also believe that we may well have averted WWIII. Too bad that Hussein would not bow to international pressures that were put on him.

_________________
http://www.RickSantorum.com/
http://www.JimBridenstine.com/
Mike Huckabee Book Store

I've found all the thoughtful remarks here very interesting and sometimes enlightening.

I believe hell is such a fearsome topic that many of us don't like to spend a lot of time thinking about it. Since I am trusting in Jesus for my salvation I confess I don't like to think of anyone going to hell. Therefore, I found Gov. Huckabee's comment somewhat jarring, but I also think it's a message that needs to be sent, and a reality that cannot and should not be ignored.

Therefore, I rejoice over the capture of Bin Laden, and I am very proud of our military, but I can also grieve that a fellow human being was so possessed by hatred and evil that he couldn't, or wouldn't, accept the free gift of salvation. Sadly, there are untold millions who still live in that darkness.

I wonder how religious leaders and Christian believers reacted when they learned Hitler had been killed? It is basically the same situation as with Bin Laden's death because we are at war and he was the leader of our enemies.

Each person is entitled to their own reaction, immediate and later after reflection, and we do need anyone critiquing each other on HA.