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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:40 pm 
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sandra wrote:
I wonder how religious leaders and Christian believers reacted when they learned Hitler had been killed? It is basically the same situation as with Bin Laden's death because we are at war and he was the leader of our enemies.

Each person is entitled to their own reaction, immediate and later after reflection, and we do need anyone critiquing each other on HA.


Thank you for that post! :like

It does seem at times that only some opinions are deemed acceptable by some here and that's a shame.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:56 pm 
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DFCSTech wrote:
goalieman wrote:
Put me in the pro-Afghan camp, but as someone who thought Iraq was a good thing to do at the time, the cost in blood and treasure vs. the good that was attained thru our efforts there (and I don't deny that there was some) just doesn't add up, IMHO. The devastation that has happened to the Christian community in Iraq since Saddam was deposed has been very saddening.

So, are you saying that with 20/20 hindsight, instead of us doing what we did and getting the results that we did, you would rather have Hussein continuing to rule Iraq today, continue shooting at our no-fly zone pilots, and possibly have attacked Israel with WMD? Keep in mind that we were not able to take out even one, single, mobile SCUD missile launcher in the 1st Gulf War, so a pre-emptive strike against them was very likely necessary, in order to succeed in taking them out in OIF (They were the first targets that we hit by US and British SOF). I know that we paid a horrible price, but I do also believe that we may well have averted WWIII. Too bad that Hussein would not bow to international pressures that were put on him.


If we deemed that it was necessary to remove Hussein from power, could we not have done to him what we did to Bin Laden? We did that to his sons afterall. I thought we were going to Iraq to give them "shock and awe", not use Iraq as some sort of base for our military to gain hedgemony in the region, a plan that hasn't really worked as planned. I also don't like that Rumsfeld used that invasion as a testing ground for his small ground forces strategy, something that thankfully Petraeus rectified with the surge tactics.

With Iran now gaining influence in Iraq and waiting to fill the void in power in that country, it seems we slayed one dragon only to see others take it's place. One thing that has to be acknowledged is that Christians living in Iraq during Hussein's rein faired a lot better than they have since he was removed. That may not nullify some of the reasons for going into Iraq, but it's one of the consequences of doing so, unintended or not.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:15 pm 
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D-Dawg wrote:
Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.

Proverbs 24:17-18 (NIV)


I'd suggest reading Psalms, chapter 109, for a different Biblical perspective on a topic such as this. Have to be careful dropping in a sentence or two from scripture to try and seal a particular point of view during a discussion........

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:26 pm 
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If we deemed that it was necessary to remove Hussein from power, could we not have done to him what we did to Bin Laden? We did that to his sons afterall.

We tried. I remember reports of attempts to bomb Hussein's position, but he kept moving around, so that our intel was uanable to pinpoint his location with up-to-the-moment accuracy. We did finally get him, hiding in that hole in the ground, and turned him over to meet justice under Iraqi's who had freedom from his murderous dictatorship.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:29 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
I also don't like that Rumsfeld used that invasion as a testing ground for his small ground forces strategy, something that thankfully Petraeus rectified with the surge tactics.

I agree with you on this point. Like Mike, I subscribe to the Powell Doctrine of using overwhelming force against your enemies.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:39 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
With Iran now gaining influence in Iraq and waiting to fill the void in power in that country, it seems we slayed one dragon only to see others take it's place.

I still would rather have this problem, that a country full of newly freed people with a new Constitution and a Representive (Republican) form of government can deal with, rather than the alternative of of a maniacal, unpredictable serial murderer dictating that missiles with unknown warhead contents remain within range of, and pointed at, Israel. Especially, since the late Yasser Arafat told the Palestinians that they would one day rule over all of Jerusalem with the help of Allah and with the help of the Iraqi missile. Assuming that the translator was accurate, I saw him say this (before the Gulf War) and it didn't make sense to me at the time. Later, of course, I was able to put 2 and 2 together.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Just curious... did anyone hear, upon hearing the news of Bin Laden's death, feel the need to go out into the streets and celebrate? Is that just a college kid thing?


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:55 pm 
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christopher.wilkerson wrote:
Just curious... did anyone hear, upon hearing the news of Bin Laden's death, feel the need to go out into the streets and celebrate? Is that just a college kid thing?


If I lived near the WH, I bet I would gone out to celebrate. But I'm a college kid. :)

Probably the most exuberant celebration I've seen was, you can imagine, at the Naval Academy. There's a video of it at hotair:

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/02/u-s-naval-academy-reacts-i-believe-that-we-have-won/

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Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:12 pm 
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DFCSTech wrote:
goalieman wrote:
With Iran now gaining influence in Iraq and waiting to fill the void in power in that country, it seems we slayed one dragon only to see others take it's place.

I still would rather have this problem, that a country full of newly freed people with a new Constitution and a Representive (Republican) form of government can deal with, rather than the alternative of of a maniacal, unpredictable serial murderer dictating that missiles with unknown warhead contents remain within range of, and pointed at, Israel. Especially, since the late Yasser Arafat told the Palestinians that they would one day rule over all of Jerusalem with the help of Allah and with the help of the Iraqi missile. Assuming that the translator was accurate, I saw him say this (before the Gulf War) and it didn't make sense to me at the time. Later, of course, I was able to put 2 and 2 together.


I would only say that the new constitution that Iraq adopted has done little good for the Christian population in that country. And while some of the things you mention may be good things for the Middle East, was it worth the enourmous cost to obtain those things? I'm fully supportive of intervening if Israel is attacked, but I'm not sure what we did in Iraq made them that much safer overall in the Middle East.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Proverbs 24:17-18
Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:05 pm 
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D-Dawg wrote:
Proverbs 24:17-18
Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.


I am real hesitant to get into theological discussions on the boards, and that is why I haven't waded into the theological debate that was going on earlier in the thread. It's not that I don't have strong views on the subject, but it's just that I don't feel this is the proper forum for me to get into some of those issues.

However....I do feel like I should share something concerning this verse. The context of the verse in Proverbs 24 is dealing with personal enemies and not enemies of the nation. It would apply to something happening to your neighbor who has harassed you over the years or about a co-worker who gets fired after being mean to you and others for a long time.

Again I'm hesitant to wade into the overarching theological discussion about whether or not it is good to celebrate the death of an avowed enemy of the nation and of Christianity in particular, and I'm hesitant to get into the discussion of the proper balance between the justice of God and the mercy of God, but I did want to comment on this one verse.



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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:14 pm 
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I am also hesitant to post the following verses, but I'll do it anyway :D

The following celebration took place after the children of Israel crossed the Red Sea.

Exodus 15

1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:25 pm 
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WalterCan wrote:
I am also hesitant to post the following verses, but I'll do it anyway :D

The following celebration took place after the children of Israel crossed the Red Sea.

Exodus 15

1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.


This scripture, in celebration, was set to music after European victory over the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.



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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
This scripture, in celebration, was set to music after European victory over the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.


It should be noted that I am not making a political point as to whether or not those verses apply to this situation. I am simply showing that you cannot make a blanket statement that all celebrations celebrating the death of an enemy are wrong and that God would always disapprove.



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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:04 am 
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I received a PM that I consider heart-felt and very thoughtful. Rather than reply privately I wanted to share a few things publicly because it is probably what a lot of people are struggling with.

I think the greatest fallacy regarding this topic right now is the idea that it is morally equivalent to compare the celebrations of some muslims in Gaza and Pakistan after 9/11 to the celebrations that took place after the announcement of the death of Bin Laden. For one thing maybe you guys saw completely different footage than I did. What I saw was mostly somber and cathartic in acknowledging that justice was done. Out of that arose a sense of relief and joy that sprang into chants of "USA, USA" in pride for our country and those who risked their lives for this mission.

What was seen after 9/11 were celebrations of murder and evil, while the celebrations the other night were expressions of gratefulness for justice. I get really upset when I see the morally equivalency debate applied to situations like Israel and the Palestinian terrorists. The terrorists kill innocent women in children at bus stops and on their way to schools, and then when Israel responds militarily it is somehow seen as morally equivalent. It's like I saw one Israeli describe it as trying to compare the actions of an arsonist with those of a firefighter. It is evil to celebrate the efforts of the arsonist, but it is fine to celebrate the actions of the firefighter.

I have seen stories about the family members of someone that has been murdered. They feel a need to go to the trials and a need for some to go and see the executions (where they can). Some would feel this is out of an appetite for revenge and a need to step on the grave of the person who did their family member harm. That is not what it is. It is a need to see justice served. This is a natural and in my opinion a healthy expression of emotion.

As I have said I am very hesitant to get into theology. I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is that we try to interpose human emotions onto God. We must understand that our emotions and our rational way of thinking has been corrupted by the Fall. We cannot arrive at absolute truth through our own rational minds. The only absolute standard of truth is Scripture. We don't understand why God had the children of Israel wipe out whole nations including the women and children. While we would never admit it out loud, many feel a sense of superiority because they would not have done such a thing and they would have shown more "mercy." They don't understand that God sees the entire picture while they only see a part and what even they do see they see through a fallen lens.

I understand this is a deeply emotional subject, and it is tough for us to wrestle with the ideas of God's Justice and God's Mercy and how they balance and apply. I don't get upset at anyone who is wrestling with these things and was uncomfortable in their own hearts and even conflicted about the various reactions to Bin Laden's death. I would caution however on taking your own internal conflicts and coming to conclusions about what God would or wouldn't do or approve.



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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:00 am 
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Very well said, WalterCan. In fact, what you said here is similiar to my own response to a PM as well.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:56 am 
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EXCELLENT post, WalterCan.

When I heard that we had gotten bin Laden, I posted on my FB page, "Usama Bin Laden is in hell, where he belongs." I got some flack for that. But again, I just feel glad that God does not allow sin to go unpunished. bin Laden could have repented and been forgiven (like Ted Bundy). But instead he chose to continue breathing out threats. So he chose hell for his eternal destiny...and I'm glad that God punishes unrepentant murderers and vicious, evil men who murder innocent people who were just going to put in an honest day's work.

One of my children was born right after 9/11. As I carried her in my body, as I gave birth, and as I nursed her in the months that followed, I couldn't help but think of the 70 widows of 9/11 who gave birth to children afterward, children who would never know their father, because he had been murdered on that terrible day.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:04 am 
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as a college kid, I'll say that my campus went crazy and started lighting off fireworks that night. also, good post, WalterCan.

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