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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:48 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
VertiCon wrote:
Miserere wrote:
I heard Archbishop Dolan on the radio recently and he said we don't oppose abortion because scripture tells us to, or because tradition tells us to; we oppose abortion because reason tells us to.

It is precisely because this is not a theological issue that we can come into the public square so forcefully.

I know there has been some elaboration of this downthread, but I was little startled when I read this. I thought surely the Archbishop miss-spoke. Or, surely this quote is lacking something without its context.

I ask myself, is the following based purely [sans scripture, tradition, theology] on "reason"?:

Quote:
'Given such unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church, Paul VI was able to declare that this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable. 72 Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. 73' -- Evangelium vitae, § 62.3, Pope John Paul II, March 25, 1995


Well, for Catholics, I don't think it is purely a matter for reason. But, certainly it could be for anyone contemplating the morality of abortion.
One crucial sentence of that statement is, "This doctrine is based upon the natural law..." I.e. it's based upon right reason.

The JPII statement covers the gamut = [scripture, tradition, theology] in contradiction of the isolated quote from the archbishop, viz.:

[emphasis mine]
(1) '...this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable...'
(2) 'This doctrine' is based upon the natural law AND upon the written Word of God

Miserere, has my understanding of ordinary language failed me here? Surely there isn't some secret esoteric meaning to the words and phrases in the Pope's message.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:01 pm 
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VertiCon wrote:
The JPII statement covers the gambit = [scripture, tradition, theology] in contradiction of the isolated quote from the archbishop, viz.:

[emphasis mine]
(1) '...this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable...'
(2) 'This doctrine' is based upon the natural law AND upon the written Word of God

Miserere, has my understanding of ordinary language failed me here? Surely there isn't some secret esoteric meaning to the words and phrases in the Pope's message.


No, I don't disagree with you. I was just emphasizing the natural law aspect of it probably because I was still mentally stuck in the previous discussion.

The archbishop was talking about why we can take the life issue to politics. He didn't mean that tradition doesn't condemn abortion, he didn't mean scripture won't lead us to a pro-life stance, he meant that anyone - Catholic or not, Christian or not - can and should be pro-life because it's reasonable.

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The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
VertiCon wrote:
The JPII statement covers the gambit = [scripture, tradition, theology] in contradiction of the isolated quote from the archbishop, viz.:

[emphasis mine]
(1) '...this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable...'
(2) 'This doctrine' is based upon the natural law AND upon the written Word of God

Miserere, has my understanding of ordinary language failed me here? Surely there isn't some secret esoteric meaning to the words and phrases in the Pope's message.


No, I don't disagree with you. I was just emphasizing the natural law aspect of it probably because I was still mentally stuck in the previous discussion.

The archbishop was talking about why we can take the life issue to politics. He didn't mean that tradition doesn't condemn abortion, he didn't mean scripture won't lead us to a pro-life stance, he meant that anyone - Catholic or not, Christian or not - can and should be pro-life because it's reasonable.

Well, I agree with that. Going into the public square and saying that if this country doesn't end abortion God will crack open the ground and swallow us up in judgment is not a wise strategy to engage the culture with.

IOW, there are rational universal commonsense reasons for non_Christians (or non_religious) people to oppose abortion, infanticide, euthansia, same-sex marriage, easy divorce and all sorts of other issues which occupy the agenda of "religious conservatives". And, the same could be said of the death penalty, although there is a counterargument in that case. And, high profile Roman Cathlolic political types i.e. Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, and no doubt numerous elected (and appointed judges) Roman Catholics have taken a "pro" (if you will) death penalty position contra the the RCCs official position.

I currently favor the legitimacy of the death penalty, but respect those who differ. In fact, in terms of crass political horse trading I'd be in favor of outlawing the death penalty if we simultaneously outlawed abortion, infanticide and euthanasia.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:33 pm 
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VertiCon wrote:
Miserere wrote:
VertiCon wrote:
The JPII statement covers the gambit = [scripture, tradition, theology] in contradiction of the isolated quote from the archbishop, viz.:

[emphasis mine]
(1) '...this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable...'
(2) 'This doctrine' is based upon the natural law AND upon the written Word of God

Miserere, has my understanding of ordinary language failed me here? Surely there isn't some secret esoteric meaning to the words and phrases in the Pope's message.


No, I don't disagree with you. I was just emphasizing the natural law aspect of it probably because I was still mentally stuck in the previous discussion.

The archbishop was talking about why we can take the life issue to politics. He didn't mean that tradition doesn't condemn abortion, he didn't mean scripture won't lead us to a pro-life stance, he meant that anyone - Catholic or not, Christian or not - can and should be pro-life because it's reasonable.

Well, I agree with that. Going into the public square and saying that if this country doesn't end abortion God will crack open the ground and swallow us up in judgment is not a wise strategy to engage the culture with.

IOW, there are rational universal commonsense reasons for non_Christians (or non_religious) people to oppose abortion, infanticide, euthansia, same-sex marriage, easy divorce and all sorts of other issues which occupy the agenda of "religious conservatives". And, the same could be said of the death penalty, although there is a counterargument in that case. And, high profile Roman Cathlolic political types i.e. Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, and no doubt numerous elected (and appointed judges) Roman Catholics have taken a "pro" (if you will) death penalty position contra the the RCCs official position.

I currently favor the legitimacy of the death penalty, but respect those who differ. In fact, in terms of crass political horse trading I'd be in favor of outlawing the death penalty if we simultaneously outlawed abortion, infanticide and euthanasia.


I haven't thought deeply about death penalty and consequently don't have a personal opinion. But in Buchanan's defense (because I know he takes what the church teaches seriously, whereas that's not clear with Hannity), church teaching against the death penalty is limited to very recent times in church history. This is in distinction to abortion, which has been condemned from the beginning; it's in distinction to homosexual acts, which have always been illicit. So I tend to think the bishops are out of line if they suggest Catholics must be anti-capital punishment; and liberals who draw equivalence between abortion and capital punishment are completely out of line (as Lawrence O'Donnell did when I saw him debate Buchanan once re. W. going to Notre Dame and Obama going to Notre Dame).

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:27 am 
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Capital punishment is not in & of itself considered wrong by the Church. There is room for discussion on this issue; not so with abortion.
Quote:
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behaviors harmful to people’s rights and the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment, then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: As far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities that the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent" (Evangelium Vitae 56).

There is an excellent article on this topic by a theologian discussing it in regard to the questions of consistency of the Catholic Church's teaching on this subject - http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/capi ... shment.htm

Now I would argue that the execution of Osama bin Laden would be one of those rare cases that was necessary. Otherwise there would be non-stop terroristic (is that a word? :lol: ) efforts to free him that would be guaranteed to result in more deaths.


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:10 pm 
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"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

Therefore, is not the "reason" for doing the good work more important than the good work itself?


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:09 pm 
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The passage of scripture sited above is dealing with false teachers/prophets/believers who use the name of the Lord for their own profit/fame/power. Not exactly sure how that relates to killing a mass murderer............

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:25 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
The passage of scripture sited above is dealing with false teachers/prophets/believers who use the name of the Lord for their own profit/fame/power. Not exactly sure how that relates to killing a mass murderer............

Sorry, I can see that neither of us are getting anywhere with this thread since neither of us seems to know what the other is referring to at any given time.
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Considering that you're just throwing scriptures out there and no one seems to know what the point of them is, I guess I'd have to agree with. scratch

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:23 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Considering that you're just throwing scriptures out there and no one seems to know what the point of them is, I guess I'd have to agree with. scratch

Not understanding Scripture would certainly explain the misunderstandings. Perhaps this would answer the authors original question:
Quote:
Evangelical Protestants are failing the social conservative movement. Why?


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:28 am 
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While I know there are Christians who talk the talk but don't walk the walk, the ones that I know who are not politically active are simply ignorant.

That is, they have been lead by the liberal culture to believe that the social issues are STRICTLY religious issues & so they think it is a matter of forcing one's religious beliefs on others. They have not been taught the truth in this area.

THAT is why it is so important for us to help them understand that this is not a matter of faith OR reason, but a matter of faith AND reason.



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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:02 am 
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jdbrown wrote:
goalieman wrote:
Considering that you're just throwing scriptures out there and no one seems to know what the point of them is, I guess I'd have to agree with. scratch

Not understanding Scripture would certainly explain the misunderstandings. Perhaps this would answer the authors original question:
Quote:
Evangelical Protestants are failing the social conservative movement. Why?


Well, it would seem that you're having difficulties in that area, so I'd have to agree with you once again.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:43 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
THAT is why it is so important for us to help them understand that this is not a matter of faith OR reason, but a matter of faith AND reason.


"I do not try, Lord, to attain Your lofty heights, because my understanding is in no way equal to it. But I do desire to understand Your truth a little, that truth that my heart believes and loves. For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I believe so that I may understand. For I believe this also, that ‘unless I believe, I shall not understand’ [Isa. 7:9]."

Anselm of Canterbury, Proslogion, ‘The Major Works,’ 87


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:08 am 
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The problem with speaking in Bible verses is that you leave it to your readers to guess what you are attempting to convey. That can lead to trouble. For example, several days ago you posted a verse that could have been construed in a very inflammatory manner, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Additionally, Scripture has multiple levels of meaning, room for application in so many different & personal ways, and complications compounded by a large number of varying translations.

The first half of Matthew 4 is, among other things, God's warning that even the devil knows & uses Scrpture.

All that is to explain why I am asking you to please not sling verses & expect God to explain your thoughts to us.



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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:09 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
The problem with speaking in Bible verses is that you leave it to your readers to guess what you are attempting to convey. That can lead to trouble. For example, several days ago you posted a verse that could have been construed in a very inflammatory manner, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Additionally, Scripture has multiple levels of meaning, room for application in so many different & personal ways, and complications compounded by a large number of varying translations.

The first half of Matthew 4 is, among other things, God's warning that even the devil knows & uses Scrpture.

All that is to explain why I am asking you to please not sling verses & expect God to explain your thoughts to us.

I’m sorry you feel that way about Scripture and my use of it. Feel free to ignore my posts if they offend you. I believe, if you add me to your “foes” list all of my verse slinging will disappear.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:05 am 
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That was a rather disingenuous & provocative response. I guess it's safe to assume that you were offended by my criticism. I am sorry.

My interest was actually in constructively furthering the discussion, by pointing out the difficulties with your approach.

At any rate, I do not consider you a foe, even if you offer yourself as one.
Pax.

~Grace


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