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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:31 am 
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Man, dispensationalism sure makes Christianity sound complicated. Makes it sound as if you can't be a really strong Christian unless you have the mental capacity to keep all these returns of Christ and judgments etc straight. Also makes it sound as if being a Christian means you have to be informed and involved in politics, especially as it regards Israel.

My question is, as you spend so much time and effort tracking all the geopolitical events, what happens to simple faith? What happens to "Jesus lived a holy life for me and died for all my sins, so now I am God's forgiven child with a sure inheritance in heaven"? What happens to sharing that good news with others?

My Christian faith is a simple faith. I believe, as the early Christians did, that Jesus "was crucified, dead, and buried; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven and sits on the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there He will come to judge the living and the dead." (The Apostles' Creed). Just one return of Christ; just one judgment. And the basis for that judgment is simple as well: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, he who does not believe will be condemned." No exceptions, for God is not a respecter of persons. God doesn't see male or female, slave or free, Jew or Greek. All He sees is sinners in need of a Savior. He has given the one Savior for all. Those who trust in Him will be saved. Those who reject Him will be condemned. End of story.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:38 am 
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There's nothing you said above here that dispensationalists don't agree with. It's not that complicated of a theology, nothing a good study Bible (1967 KJV Scofield edition :wink: ) can't clarify for the interested layman. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:42 am 
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goalieman wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Okay, c'mon - don't bail on me now just when things were getting interesting.

How does manna fit into the whole "bread" thing - the description is not of Wonder Bread so does anyone wonder why God called it bread?
(ooh, the word play is coming fast & furious now!)


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Actually, it was the Israelites who gave this bread the name manna. Exodus 16:14 says "And when the children of Israel. Saw it, they said to one another, It is manna: for they knew not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat." The word manna is a transliteration of two Hebrew words that mean "What is it?"

So the best I can guess is, it was a form of bread, probably a good multi-grain beings God made it. :wink:

Oops, you're right - I forgot. But my point is still there - Moses, God's mouthpiece, told them it was the bread that the Lord had given them. Now, reading on, how does it describe the appearance?

"As small as the hoar frost on the ground".

If you can figure out what that might look like, let me know! :wink:


(Not just verse 14, but you need to read all the way thru to 31)
Exodus 16:
[14] And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

[31] Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:44 am 
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goalieman wrote:
There's nothing you said above here that dispensationalists don't agree with. It's not that complicated of a theology, nothing a good study Bible (1967 KJV Scofield edition :wink: ) can't clarify for the interested layman. :)

Iffen you don't mind me askin', what denomination do you adhere to?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:55 am 
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Calvery Chapel is where I hang out, an evangelical, non-denominational outfit. They're all over the country but not really a denomination like Methodist, Lutheran, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:09 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Calvery Chapel is where I hang out, an evangelical, non-denominational outfit. They're all over the country but not really a denomination like Methodist, Lutheran, etc.

I know Calvary Chapel & like what I know of it! My DH & I used to enjoy listening to Greg Laurie so that's where we first became acquainted with it (we only stopped when cable changed the channel's availability & then the schedule also changed). We know several families that started their Christian walk there. When I hear the term "evangelical", that's always what I think of first.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:16 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:

(Not just verse 14, but you need to read all the way thru to 31)
Exodus 16:
[14] And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

[31] Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.


Here are some pictures of coriander seeds
http://www.google.com/search?q=coriande ... 76&bih=840

Why did the Lord call it bread?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:32 am 
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goalieman wrote:
There's nothing you said above here that dispensationalists don't agree with. It's not that complicated of a theology, nothing a good study Bible (1967 KJV Scofield edition :wink: ) can't clarify for the interested layman. :)


However, the notes in a study Bible are not inspired. "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain." The Jews who have rejected Christ and his resurrection are not saved; their faith is vain. They will not be blessed or saved by virtue of the fact that they are descendants of Abraham. God's promise to save those who believe is unconditional--no strings attached; His promise to give Israel the land in the Old Testament was conditional. Israel has relinquished its right to the land by virtue of their rejection of Jesus who is the fulfillment of the unconditional promise God gives to those who believe.

Those who repent and return to the Lord have the assurance that they will spend a blessed eternity with Him. They may, however, experience temporal consequences for specific sins. Bathsheba's son died, in spite of David's repentance and prayer; Jacob never saw his mother again after they deceived Isaac; a single woman who has a baby may repent, but still has challenges to face as a consequence of her sin; a gay who repents may still die of AIDS; and Jews who turn to Jesus may have strife in this life as they are forced to fight for the land that once was theirs. In the end all who believe will enter heaven, the believer's promised land, where there will be no consequences for sin.

Having said all that, I always qualify that I believe we should support the democratic nation of Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:35 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Not sure where you're going with that ( QVA can argue with you on that one :lol: ), but it's interesting to note that even within the words "bread of life", you have the figurative word "bread" describing Christ as the substance of literal "life". Neither a wooden literalism nor a figurative/spiritualizing approach to scripture works, one has to discern what the text is saying within the larger context of the chapter.


I believe the doc was saying that if one takes your "plain sense" standard when reading John Ch 6 then one should come to the Catholic position on the eurcharist. :)

On the other hand, I don't see anything plain about the book of Revelation generally. Specifically, the book seems to be full of figurative numbers.

Now, I don't think God is "done" with the Jewish people yet. As St Paul says in Romans Ch 11, 25-36

"I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
and thus all Israel will be saved,
as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?"

"Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?"
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

I think the first thing I italicized indicates that God isn't through with the Jewish people. I think the second thing indicates we should be wary of trying to know exactly how this will happen.

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The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:06 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Quote:
(Not just verse 14, but you need to read all the way thru to 31)
Exodus 16:
[14] And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

[31] Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.


Here are some pictures of coriander seeds
http://www.google.com/search?q=coriande ... 76&bih=840

Why did the Lord call it bread?


Thanks for those photos of coriander seed. I've never eaten those, that I know of. Have you? But then I certainly haven't had manna, either, to know how it compares! :wink: The Children of Israel got tired of the honey wafers, it seems, even though they must have tasted quite good. Typical human nature; we like variety, apparently even getting tired of good food, miraculous food, that keeps away starvation.

Are you referring to this verse?

"[Jesus said] This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (John 6:41)

"He gave them [the Israelites] bread from heaven to eat."(vs. 31)

Since the concordance describes the manna as an "edible gum," and the word translated here as "bread," is a loaf, the obvious meaning is "food." They were not identical but both sustained life. The manna was a wafer and so presumably was the Passover bread that Jesus broke.


One of the many wonderful representations of Christ is the bread. As J. Vernon McGee often taught, a symbol is a weak representation of a truth that is even more relevant and powerful. So the lesson is that while the manna represented the spiritual food to come--in fact, Jesus who would satisfy the soul's needs--His own presence and coming was far more satisfying, as well as eternal. His body was symbolized by the bread He broke at the Last Supper. He had a wonderful way of using word pictures in His parables, also.

All of the symbols and pictures of the Old Testament are thus weaker than the coming fulfillment. Manna was needed daily; Jesus is forever and ever. The Tabernacle, the bread, the wine, the incense, all represent beautifully a deeper spiritual truth and acted as prophetic symbols of a then-future fulfillment. The Old Testament is explained in the New Testament; the New Testament is hidden like manna in the Old.

Sorry, after 30 some years of leading Bible studies I just can't help myself from going into the teacher mode. The Word is my manna, daily partaken. Thanks for the reminder.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:42 am 
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maryjthom wrote:
goalieman wrote:
There's nothing you said above here that dispensationalists don't agree with. It's not that complicated of a theology, nothing a good study Bible (1967 KJV Scofield edition :wink: ) can't clarify for the interested layman. :)


However, the notes in a study Bible are not inspired. "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain." The Jews who have rejected Christ and his resurrection are not saved; their faith is vain. They will not be blessed or saved by virtue of the fact that they are descendants of Abraham. God's promise to save those who believe is unconditional--no strings attached; His promise to give Israel the land in the Old Testament was conditional. Israel has relinquished its right to the land by virtue of their rejection of Jesus who is the fulfillment of the unconditional promise.


No one said that the footnotes in a study Bible are divinely inspired (though they could be well informed by the Holy Spirit), but they can be helpful in understanding the text that you're reading by explaining customs of that time period, names , places, etc.

But Genesis 17:7,8 clearly states that Gods covenant with Abraham is "an everlasting covenant" (that being the land covenant). Personal salvation is a different subject from what's being discussed there. That God drove them from that land due to their disobediance is clear, but his plan to bring them back to that land for the time when they will return to him and receive their Messiah is also clear from scripture.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:06 am 
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Miserere wrote:
goalieman wrote:
Not sure where you're going with that ( QVA can argue with you on that one :lol: ), but it's interesting to note that even within the words "bread of life", you have the figurative word "bread" describing Christ as the substance of literal "life". Neither a wooden literalism nor a figurative/spiritualizing approach to scripture works, one has to discern what the text is saying within the larger context of the chapter.


I believe the doc was saying that if one takes your "plain sense" standard when reading John Ch 6 then one should come to the Catholic position on the eurcharist. :)

On the other hand, I don't see anything plain about the book of Revelation generally. Specifically, the book seems to be full of figurative numbers".


Actually, a plain reading of the text would seem to indicate that Christ's disciples wouldn't be nawing at his arm in order to get that eternal life he was talking to them about, something figurative must be in play there..........a plain reading of the text doth not equate to reading it with a wooden literalism. As I mentioned with the "bread of life" text, figurative and literal language are sometimes used even within the same phrase.

"If the text makes sense, seek no other" doesn't imply a "plain text" (i.e. wooden literalism) reading of scripture, just that one uses commonsense when reading the text. When Christ says he is the "Alpha and Omega", he clearly is not stating that he's the greek alphabet. Yet when he says "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive evermore,", that's quite literal. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:40 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Miserere wrote:
goalieman wrote:
Not sure where you're going with that ( QVA can argue with you on that one :lol: ), but it's interesting to note that even within the words "bread of life", you have the figurative word "bread" describing Christ as the substance of literal "life". Neither a wooden literalism nor a figurative/spiritualizing approach to scripture works, one has to discern what the text is saying within the larger context of the chapter.


I believe the doc was saying that if one takes your "plain sense" standard when reading John Ch 6 then one should come to the Catholic position on the eurcharist. :)

On the other hand, I don't see anything plain about the book of Revelation generally. Specifically, the book seems to be full of figurative numbers".


Actually, a plain reading of the text would seem to indicate that Christ's disciples wouldn't be nawing at his arm in order to get that eternal life he was talking to them about, something figurative must be in play there..........a plain reading of the text doth not equate to reading it with a wooden literalism. As I mentioned with the "bread of life" text, figurative and literal language are sometimes used even within the same phrase.

"If the text makes sense, seek no other" doesn't imply a "plain text" (i.e. wooden literalism) reading of scripture, just that one uses commonsense when reading the text. When Christ says he is the "Alpha and Omega", he clearly is not stating that he's the greek alphabet. Yet when he says "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive evermore,", that's quite literal. :)


But goalieman, I'm afraid all those liberal protestants agree with you there, therefore I ask you to reconsider. :wink:

I understand the greek root of the word for eat that was used meant to gnaw in a gritty sort of way. But that just further confirms that Jesus wasn't speaking symbolically. After a bunch of the Jews were turned off by what he'd said and left, why didn't he say, nonono, jk about the eating my flesh and drinking my blood bit! Perhaps because he meant it.

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The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:12 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
maryjthom wrote:
goalieman wrote:
There's nothing you said above here that dispensationalists don't agree with. It's not that complicated of a theology, nothing a good study Bible (1967 KJV Scofield edition :wink: ) can't clarify for the interested layman. :)


However, the notes in a study Bible are not inspired. "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain." The Jews who have rejected Christ and his resurrection are not saved; their faith is vain. They will not be blessed or saved by virtue of the fact that they are descendants of Abraham. God's promise to save those who believe is unconditional--no strings attached; His promise to give Israel the land in the Old Testament was conditional. Israel has relinquished its right to the land by virtue of their rejection of Jesus who is the fulfillment of the unconditional promise.


No one said that the footnotes in a study Bible are divinely inspired (though they could be well informed by the Holy Spirit), but they can be helpful in understanding the text that you're reading by explaining customs of that time period, names , places, etc.

But Genesis 17:7,8 clearly states that Gods covenant with Abraham is "an everlasting covenant" (that being the land covenant). Personal salvation is a different subject from what's being discussed there. That God drove them from that land due to their disobediance is clear, but his plan to bring them back to that land for the time when they will return to him and receive their Messiah is also clear from scripture.


I like my annotated Bibles. One I agree with most of the time and the other not so much. But I do appreciate two rather different takes on passages. I do not have a Scofield but would enjoy that, too. My favorite tool is to look up words in the concordance for root meanings and the repeated usages. But it saves so much time to have the notes as well as all the cross-references. If we had to do all the research ourselves it would take far longer. We benefit from the study of those before. Yet we are responsible before God for knowing and accepting the truth. He has given us such a depth of information, all perfectly recorded.

Another great help is to have a timeline with the various points of history. Then one can see how the prophets and the judges and kings overlapped in the history of Israel and other nations. We can see then at a glance how indebted we are to the nation and people of Israel. Well, really to God who made them and spoke through them.

One thing we need to remember is that while Jesus is our Savior, He is also King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The book of Revelation effectively portrays that progression. He is of the lineage (humanly) of David. The Old and New Testament make a big deal of geneologies. There is a great connectedness between Old and New Testament. They are not identical but rely each on the other.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:13 pm 
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As you read through Moses' last words to Israel about God's old covenant with Israel in the book of Deuteronomy, there is a theme that is repeated over and over again, namely:

These two things are tied to one another: Israel's FAITHFULNESS to the Lord and THE LORD'S BLESSING (including the blessing of occupying the land).

Conversely, these two things are tied to one another: Israel's UNFAITHFULNESS to the Lord and THE REMOVAL OF THE LORD'S BLESSINGS (including being driven from the land and scattered among the nations).

In other words, as long as the Jews as a nation continue to be unfaithful to the Lord, Scripture gives no reason to expect that the Lord will bless the nation as a whole. (Individual Jews who come to faith in Jesus as the Christ, however, the Lord will bless. They are the Lord's true Israel -- His elect. This is the Lord being faithful to His new covenant, which is a covenant of grace.)

Another thought: We help the Jewish people the most if we declare to them that Jesus is the Christ and show them the eternal blessings that God promises to all people through faith in Christ. Helping the earthly nation of Israel only in a material, political way is a waste of time, spiritually speaking. The earthly nation of Israel will pass away with all of the other nations of the earth when Christ returns in judgment. When that great day comes, the only things that will be left standing are those things that are founded firmly on Jesus.

Supporting the earthly nation of Israel in a material, political way does them no good at all unless that support is joined with praying for their conversion and sharing the gospel of Jesus the Christ with them. Giving them only material support can, in fact, be seen as confirming them in their rejection of Jesus, which in the end means eternal damnation for the unbelieving Jew.

Do you love the Jews? Then pray for them and share Jesus with them. Then they will have more than a few measly square miles of dirt on the earth; then they will have an eternal inheritance in heaven.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Miserere wrote:

Actually, a plain reading of the text would seem to indicate that Christ's disciples wouldn't be nawing at his arm in order to get that eternal life he was talking to them about, something figurative must be in play there..........a plain reading of the text doth not equate to reading it with a wooden literalism. As I mentioned with the "bread of life" text, figurative and literal language are sometimes used even within the same phrase.

"If the text makes sense, seek no other" doesn't imply a "plain text" (i.e. wooden literalism) reading of scripture, just that one uses commonsense when reading the text. When Christ says he is the "Alpha and Omega", he clearly is not stating that he's the greek alphabet. Yet when he says "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive evermore,", that's quite literal. :)


But goalieman, I'm afraid all those liberal protestants agree with you there, therefore I ask you to reconsider. :wink:

I understand the greek root of the word for eat that was used meant to gnaw in a gritty sort of way. But that just further confirms that Jesus wasn't speaking symbolically. After a bunch of the Jews were turned off by what he'd said and left, why didn't he say, nonono, jk about the eating my flesh and drinking my blood bit! Perhaps because he meant it.[/quote]
Quote:


But the conservatives protestants agree with my interepretation as well. :wink:

Actually, Jesus was quite specific in why he spoke in parables and used figurative speech at times, and that was because he didn't want the legalists of his day to get what he was saying (don't have the Bible with me at the moment, but y'all know the verses!). Anyone could have claimed that they were the messiah they were looking for (e.g. Obama :lol: ), Christ wanted to weed out the tares from the wheat so to speak.

P.S. Pardon the hosed up quote boxes above............away from home and using my droid phone, very hard to reply when there are 8 DOZEN imbedded quotes in the replied to posts! (C'mon gang, work with me here!). :P

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:10 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Actually, Jesus was quite specific in why he spoke in parables and used figurative speech at times, and that was because he didn't want the legalists of his day to get what he was saying (don't have the Bible with me at the moment, but y'all know the verses!). Anyone could have claimed that they were the messiah they were looking for (e.g. Obama ), Christ wanted to weed out the tares from the wheat so to speak.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was chasing off His followers with John 6? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:18 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
But Genesis 17:7,8 clearly states that Gods covenant with Abraham is "an everlasting covenant" (that being the land covenant). Personal salvation is a different subject from what's being discussed there. That God drove them from that land due to their disobediance is clear, but his plan to bring them back to that land for the time when they will return to him and receive their Messiah is also clear from scripture.


Isn't a covenant by definition unbreakable? That is (and this is where it gets interesting) until one of the bound parties dies?

I think that is where we lose some of our brethren on this issue. They would argue that Christ's death terminated God's Covenant with the Jews as His rebirth (resurrection) initiated the New Covenant with His Blood.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:19 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
(Not just verse 14, but you need to read all the way thru to 31)
Exodus 16:
[14] And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.

[31] Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Here are some pictures of coriander seeds
http://www.google.com/search?q=coriande ... 76&bih=840


justgrace wrote:

Thanks for those photos of coriander seed. I've never eaten those, that I know of. Have you? But then I certainly haven't had manna, either, to know how it compares! :wink: The Children of Israel got tired of the honey wafers, it seems, even though they must have tasted quite good. Typical human nature; we like variety, apparently even getting tired of good food, miraculous food, that keeps away starvation.
I use ground coriander in some of my Mexican cooking - it's kind of spicy sweet, reminds me a bit of cardamom.

Yes, I remember marveling at the ingratitude of the Israelites as a small child, but as an adult, I understand & empathize with them all too well. It is sad how oblivious to & unappreciative of God's miracles we can be.

QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Why did the Lord call it bread?

justgrace wrote:

Are you referring to this verse?

"[Jesus said] This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (John 6:41)

"He gave them [the Israelites] bread from heaven to eat."(vs. 31)

Since the concordance describes the manna as an "edible gum," and the word translated here as "bread," is a loaf, the obvious meaning is "food." They were not identical but both sustained life. The manna was a wafer and so presumably was the Passover bread that Jesus broke.


One of the many wonderful representations of Christ is the bread. As J. Vernon McGee often taught, a symbol is a weak representation of a truth that is even more relevant and powerful. So the lesson is that while the manna represented the spiritual food to come--in fact, Jesus who would satisfy the soul's needs--His own presence and coming was far more satisfying, as well as eternal. His body was symbolized by the bread He broke at the Last Supper. He had a wonderful way of using word pictures in His parables, also.

All of the symbols and pictures of the Old Testament are thus weaker than the coming fulfillment. Manna was needed daily; Jesus is forever and ever. The Tabernacle, the bread, the wine, the incense, all represent beautifully a deeper spiritual truth and acted as prophetic symbols of a then-future fulfillment. The Old Testament is explained in the New Testament; the New Testament is hidden like manna in the Old.

Sorry, after 30 some years of leading Bible studies I just can't help myself from going into the teacher mode. The Word is my manna, daily partaken. Thanks for the reminder.

No need to apologize at all! We are actually following similar paths of thought!

The thing is that the discussion had turned to God's use of symbolism & I was pointing out that God has demonstrated to us in Scripture that He loves to use symbols that are spiritually as well as physically true. Our problem is that we tend to read Scripture with our human "glasses" that limit our perspective and so we can easily miss God's subtlety.

[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
[42] They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven'?"

God sent bread down from heaven - bread does not necessarily mean a grain loaf, but we forget that in its broader sense means "something that nourishes; sustenance" - and the Jews called it "manna" meaning "what is it". IOW, in the OT, God sent a nourishment from heaven that was physically life sustaining, BUT not spiritually AND was not immediately recognizable by human perception.

Since we know that the OT symbols prefigured the greater to come realities of the NT, then the NT manna would also come down from heaven, be physically life sustaining, be not immediately recognizable by human perception PLUS as Our Lord tells us, would now also give spiritual life.

It seems strange to me that Our Lord was so emphatic that He repeated Himself many times on the point that He Himself is the bread and that the people must eat of His flesh & drink His blood - and even while His followers were questing for a "merely" symbolic understanding that would allow them to accept His Word without contravening God's Law, He continued to insist on repeating His words literally - & yet people now still insist He was only speaking symbolically.

And yes, Jesus often spoke in parables, but when all except the 12 Apostles left, He did not then turn to them and give an explanation to clarify His meaning as He had always done for them before. He simply asked them if this Truth was too much for them, also. And Peter basically says 'we don't understand it, but we trust & believe in You'.

God sent Jesus down from heaven - Jesus Himself is the manna. So yes, we draw spiritual nourishment from His written Word, but God did not send us His books till the Holy Spirit inspired them decades to centuries later. Everything still points to Jesus Himself.

And Jesus does give His Apostles something of an explanation of HOW they are to eat His flesh & drink His blood in Luke 22
[19] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Understanding this to mean 'My body will be broken just like this bread, and I'm doing it to save you, so repeat this ceremony to remember what I did and why' is terribly facile. The sacrifice of the Passover lamb was one of atonement; the sacrifice of bread & wine was one of thanksgiving. These sacrifices were literally physically performed & literally physically eaten in the OT - the NT reality would have to be at least as much as these prefigurements.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Actually, Jesus was quite specific in why he spoke in parables and used figurative speech at times, and that was because he didn't want the legalists of his day to get what he was saying (don't have the Bible with me at the moment, but y'all know the verses!). Anyone could have claimed that they were the messiah they were looking for (e.g. Obama ), Christ wanted to weed out the tares from the wheat so to speak.


Are you suggesting He used hyperbolic allegory? A kind of "code" His followers would have a better chance of understanding but His enemies would be less likely to pin him down on? Couldn't that lead to confusion even among His closest followers who wanted to understand but just couldn't get past their own presuppositions? Lacking some sort of emoticons (i.e. :wink: ) to let His followers in on the code He'd need some sort of "catch phrase" perhaps, like say, "he who has ears, let him hear."

Such as this:


Mark 4:8-10 (New International Version)

8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.

Or this:

Mark 4:22-24 (New International Version)

22 For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.

Or this:

Luke 14:34-35 (New International Version)

34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

Meaning that the words he has chosen to convey an eternal truth are allegorical in nature. His listeners are to discern the "truth" in those words which he has chosen to "conceal."

Sort of like John's use of the phrase eight times in Revelation.

Including:


Revelation 13 (New International Version)



Revelation 13

1 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

There is a reason why amillennialism (based on the hermeneutic which is actually grammatical historical) took hold as the dominant interpretation among Christians globally and historically. For these Christians the language was clearly to be understood as an allegorical assurance to the early church, and subsequent generations, that the mysterious unfolding of events we view darkly are in fact part of a plan by a sovereign God who controls all things, will never abandon us, and will justly judge the living and the dead. There was hope. There was justice for the martyrs. There was a resurrection. There was an eternal reward worth every hardship and beyond our feeble human powers of description. That was a message the early church badly needed under persecution but one that the very nature of Roman persecution required to be presented with "veiled" references. It is still a message that is badly needed.

Maranatha!

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"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes


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