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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:23 pm 
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As I have said before I used to hold to a futurist view of eschatology, but after a careful and sober review of all of the various positions, I came to the conclusion that Partial Preterism is the closest to what the Bible is trying to communicate. I would suggest that everyone give a honest and thorough study of each of the various view points.

There are a lot of very good resources on the subject of Preterism at these websites:
Preterist Archive
The Preterist Site
The Preterist Voice

I think that one of the reasons that the futurist view is so widely held is because of the modern thinkers need for sensationalism. We need to be entertained. Partial Preterism is not very entertaining.

Another good book: Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Hold the horses here! Question #1: how did the jews practice sacrifices on the Temple Mount when the Temple was destroyed (not one stone left upon another some important New Testament person said :wink: ). The Romans did what they sought to accomplish in A.D. 70, they knew that the jews national life was linked to their Temple, destroying that was in essence destroying what the jews had left in Israel. Yes, there was still a large jewish presence in the land even after A.D. 70, but so was there a large German population in post WWII East Germany, but they were hardly in a position of significance as far as having any real power is concerned. The jews could do only what Rome would tolerate, the heavy boot of the Romans came down on when they crossed that line, as you've pointed out here.

But this brings up an unintended (I think) point: if A.D. 70 wasn't an essentially complete destruction of Israel, doesn't that poke a big hole in the preterist's view of those events? In comes partial preterism, I know, and if we could actually nail down any specifics that they hold to on this event, we could get somewhere!!! But besides that, the language used in Revelation is of a worldwide situation, not a local one like what happened in A.D. 70.

But for some Memorial weekend musing, I'll throw out this Biblical event to ponder: Why did the wise men in Daniel (astrologers if you will) depart to Israel at that point in history? What prompted them to follow this star (the Shekinah glory of God some would imply) at that time?

Now, back to arguing hockey on another forum I'm on! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:46 pm 
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jdbrown wrote:
As I have said before I used to hold to a futurist view of eschatology, but after a careful and sober review of all of the various positions, I came to the conclusion that Partial Preterism is the closest to what the Bible is trying to communicate. I would suggest that everyone give a honest and thorough study of each of the various view points.

There are a lot of very good resources on the subject of Preterism at this website: Preterist Archive

I think that one of the reasons that the futurist view is so widely held is because of the modern thinkers need for sensationalism. We need to be entertained. Partial Preterism is not very entertaining.


Unfortunately, that all to often is the condescending mindset of the preterist community. Dispensationalism, which is really just an academic term for those who hold to a futurist view of most prophecy, has been a position held by very serious and sober students of the Bible. Norm Geisler, Charles Ryrie, Renald Showers and scores of others are as serious of Bible scholars as you can get. That Tim Lahaye decided to go Hollywood with it (whether his motives were pure or not I can't really know) is unfortunate, IMO, but it doesn't detract from the serious scholarship of the so many theologians who hold to the dispensational viewpoint.

Preterism, or partial preterism, isn't rejected because it's "not exciting", it's because, in the case of full preterism, is bad theology, and in the case of partial preterism, it"s all over the place among it's adherents.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:24 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Hold the horses here! Question #1: how did the jews practice sacrifices on the Temple Mount when the Temple was destroyed not one stone left upon another some important New Testament person said :wink: ). The Romans did what they sought to accomplish in A.D. 70, they knew that the jews national life was linked to their Temple, destroying that was in essence destroying what the jews had left in Israel. Yes, there was still a large jewish presence in the land even after A.D. 70, but so was there a large German population in post WWII East Germany, but they were hardly in a position of significance as far as having any real power is concerned. The jews could do only what Rome would tolerate, the heavy boot of the Romans came down on when they crossed that line, as you've pointed out here.

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WELCOME TO COLOR COMMENTARY LAND! :wink: :oops:

Well by setting them back on top of one another and getting on with it I suppose. As happened when the Second Temple was restored after the First Temple was destroyed.

Ezra
2Then Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brothers the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brothers arose and built the altar of the God of Israel to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the law of Moses, the man of God. 3So they set up the altar on its foundation, for they were terrified because of the peoples of the lands; and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, burnt offerings morning and evening. 4They celebrated the Feast of Booths, as it is written, and offered the fixed number of burnt offerings daily, according to the ordinance, as each day required; 5and afterward there was a continual burnt offering, also for the new moons and for all the fixed festivals of the LORD that were consecrated, and from everyone who offered a freewill offering to the LORD. 6From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to the LORD, but the foundation of the temple of the LORD had not been laid. 7Then they gave money to the masons and carpenters, and food, drink and oil to the Sidonians and to the Tyrians, to bring cedar wood from Lebanon to the sea at Joppa, according to the permission they had from Cyrus king of Persia.
8Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua the son of Jozadak and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites from twenty years and older to oversee the work of the house of the LORD.

The sacrificial system under Ezra’s restoration was up and running before the Temple was even begun much less finished.

So was Israel in “covenant” with God during the 23 years it took to complete the Temple? Was there no “temple” worship taking place there as the Holy Alters burned continuously those 23 years and the Priests administered the Law, sacrifices, and Feast Days?

[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today. Still the Temple grounds were clearly a mess when Kochbar retook the city; but the place itself was all that was needed to begin the process as under Ezra]

Kochbar’s Revolt retook Jerusalem, restored the open altars on the Temple Mount, and announced the re-building of the Temple. Coins struck by his government have an image of the Second Temple portico on one side and were used to buttress his claim of Messianic Redemption and rededication.

Evidently no one seems to have told the Jews that they were beaten. It also seems like they kept right on without a Temple as they had between the First and Second Temples. Certainly the Roman's would disagree with you here that what followed was some sort of mopping up of bitter enders since they lost far more troops the second time. The first time they did think they could destroy Jewish nationalism by destroying the Temple. Events proved otherwise. The second time they went for the whole "ethnic cleansing" approach as a "final solution" with much more lasting results. Still the absence of a Temple today has not exactly stopped the development of a Jewish nationalism. In fact Temple re-builders are a distinct minority in what is overwhelmingly a secular Israel today.

Your analogy concerning Germany is only at all applicable if you adjust it by one war. German militarism was thought tied to the Kaiser and ruling Junkers in "The Great War;" which sadly turned out to be so wrong as to result in renaming it World War ONE. Though the Kaiser was forced to abdicate and Democracy put in place as a condition of defeat (designed to make it a "war to end all wars"), events showed German militarism was more "democratic" than that. A second a more brutal war was needed to root it out. The first war was devastating for Germany; the second decisive (sound familiar). The first should have taught the lesson; the second did teach the lesson.

As a Southerner I am well aware that ther is "no education in the second kick of the mule." But some folks still end up experiencing it before they learn.

For the early Church these punishments of God's chosen people and their kinsmen would have seemed the end of the world as they know it. John tells them they are right - "But I feel fine!" Because the Christian dispensation has nothing to do with old Israel, and salvation nothing to do with the old sacrifices. That was a hard lessen. But true.

Now let’s say you’re a Jewish Christian in the time of the First Jewish War (66-73). You’d be sorely tempted to support the rebels and defend the Temple of God (where many Jewish Christians including Paul (Acts 24:11;17-24) continued to participate in at least some of the traditional observances). But Jesus’ well know testimony related in Mark 13 is flee; so you flee.

The Temple is destroyed. The inference from the last of Jesus’ testimony is to expect an imminent final judgment. But it does not come. Perhaps God is making clear that the Old Law has truly passed away. The Hebrew letter (c. 63-64 A.D.) would give some guidance as it just now begins to circulate widely though written before the Fall of Jerusalem. Christ is superior to Angels, Abraham, the fulfillment of the Law, a “final” sacrifice, Once for All time.

Sixty years later (in 132 A.D.) another generation of Christians, living in anticipation of final judgment, sees Kochbar raise the banner of Jewish nationalism and religious identity. He drives out the Romans, takes Jerusalem in a brilliant and audacious campaign, promises a new Temple, and declares a Restoration of God’s Kingdom. Tempting? Maybe this is it? The first revolt swept away the old as unworthy; maybe this will usher in the new Israel; a physical Kingdom of God ruled from His throne in physical Jerusalem. But again the language of Mark 13 and now Revelation offer guidance that this New Israel is also a false hope. Again the Christians stand aside.

I don't expect you to agree. But I do intend to give a defense as to why amillennialism vs. millennialism may not be so "plain text" obvious. But it is interesting. :tinfoil

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Southern Doc wrote:
goalieman wrote:


WELCOME TO COLOR COMMENTARY LAND! :wink: :oops:

Well by setting them back on top of one another and getting on with it I suppose. As happened when the Second Temple was restored after the First Temple was destroyed.

Ezra
2Then Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brothers the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brothers arose and built the altar of the God of Israel to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the law of Moses, the man of God. 3So they set up the altar on its foundation, for they were terrified because of the peoples of the lands; and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, burnt offerings morning and evening. 4They celebrated the Feast of Booths, as it is written, and offered the fixed number of burnt offerings daily, according to the ordinance, as each day required; 5and afterward there was a continual burnt offering, also for the new moons and for all the fixed festivals of the LORD that were consecrated, and from everyone who offered a freewill offering to the LORD. 6From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to the LORD, but the foundation of the temple of the LORD had not been laid. 7Then they gave money to the masons and carpenters, and food, drink and oil to the Sidonians and to the Tyrians, to bring cedar wood from Lebanon to the sea at Joppa, according to the permission they had from Cyrus king of Persia.
8Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua the son of Jozadak and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites from twenty years and older to oversee the work of the house of the LORD.

The sacrificial system under Ezra’s restoration was up and running before the Temple was even begun much less finished.

So was Israel in “covenant” with God during the 23 years it took to complete the Temple? Was there no “temple” worship taking place there as the Holy Alters burned continuously those 23 years and the Priests administered the Law, sacrifices, and Feast Days?

[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today. Still the Temple grounds were clearly a mess when Kochbar retook the city; but the place itself was all that was needed to begin the process as under Ezra]

Kochbar’s Revolt retook Jerusalem, restored the open altars on the Temple Mount, and announced the re-building of the Temple. Coins struck by his government have an image of the Second Temple portico on one side and were used to buttress his claim of Messianic Redemption and rededication.

Evidently no one seems to have told the Jews that they were beaten. It also seems like they kept right on without a Temple as they had between the First and Second Temples. Certainly the Roman's would disagree with you here that what followed was some sort of mopping up of bitter enders since they lost far more troops the second time. The first time they did think they could destroy Jewish nationalism by destroying the Temple. Events proved otherwise. The second time they went for the whole "ethnic cleansing" approach as a "final solution" with much more lasting results. Still the absence of a Temple today has not exactly stopped the development of a Jewish nationalism. In fact Temple re-builders are a distinct minority in what is overwhelmingly a secular Israel today.

Your analogy concerning Germany is only at all applicable if you adjust it by one war. German militarism was thought tied to the Kaiser and ruling Junkers in "The Great War;" which sadly turned out to be so wrong as to result in renaming it World War ONE. Though the Kaiser was forced to abdicate and Democracy put in place as a condition of defeat (designed to make it a "war to end all wars"), events showed German militarism was more "democratic" than that. A second a more brutal war was needed to root it out. The first war was devastating for Germany; the second decisive (sound familiar). The first should have taught the lesson; the second did teach the lesson.

As a Southerner I am well aware that ther is "no education in the second kick of the mule." But some folks still end up experiencing it before they learn.

For the early Church these punishments of God's chosen people and their kinsmen would have seemed the end of the world as they know it. John tells them they are right - "But I feel fine!" Because the Christian dispensation has nothing to do with old Israel, and salvation nothing to do with the old sacrifices. That was a hard lessen. But true.

Now let’s say you’re a Jewish Christian in the time of the First Jewish War (66-73). You’d be sorely tempted to support the rebels and defend the Temple of God (where many Jewish Christians including Paul (Acts 24:11;17-24) continued to participate in at least some of the traditional observances). But Jesus’ well know testimony related in Mark 13 is flee; so you flee.

The Temple is destroyed. The inference from the last of Jesus’ testimony is to expect an imminent final judgment. But it does not come. Perhaps God is making clear that the Old Law has truly passed away. The Hebrew letter (c. 63-64 A.D.) would give some guidance as it just now begins to circulate widely though written before the Fall of Jerusalem. Christ is superior to Angels, Abraham, the fulfillment of the Law, a “final” sacrifice, Once for All time.

Sixty years later (in 132 A.D.) another generation of Christians, living in anticipation of final judgment, sees Kochbar raise the banner of Jewish nationalism and religious identity. He drives out the Romans, takes Jerusalem in a brilliant and audacious campaign, promises a new Temple, and declares a Restoration of God’s Kingdom. Tempting? Maybe this is it? The first revolt swept away the old as unworthy; maybe this will usher in the new Israel; a physical Kingdom of God ruled from His throne in physical Jerusalem. But again the language of Mark 13 and now Revelation offer guidance that this New Israel is also a false hope. Again the Christians stand aside.

I don't expect you to agree. But I do intend to give a defense as to why amillennialism vs. millennialism may not be so "plain text" obvious. But it is interesting. :tinfoil


I may not have color at my disposal at the moment, but I do have emoticons! :zorro

As to the first temple being re-assembled as it were vs. the second temple, they didn't have Rome around at that point of history. And it was the Persian king who gave the permission to rebuild the temple in the first place (as you noted), the AD 70 jews had no such permission. Sure, they could piece what they could back together until the Romans would suffer it no longer, but their brief retaking of parts of Jerusalem didn't have much shelf life to them. But I am glad that you brought up Ezra here, as it answers to a question someone elsed poised about who would build the third temple...........doesn't need to be jews or christians it would appear. :wink:

I should mention too that the Eastern wall was a retaining wall that surrounded the actual temple itself. Many do not consider that part of the actual temple itself. So the "No stone upon another" may still be valid. :wink:

Interesting to note as well as to why the Romans did in fact level the Temple as completely as they did. It's said that there were many jewels and gold built into the stones of the Temple and the Roman soldiers wanted to take the booty with them, thus why they took it apart the way that they did.

My point about East Germany is that, though lots of Germans still lived there after it was ceded to Russia, they hardly had much power. Similar to the jews post AD 70 I would prepose. (On a side note, thank God that my grandmother snuck herself and my mother out of Eastern Germany as the Russians came thru it.............I might be a commie if they didn't! :shock: ).

But you do bring up some history about how many soldiers the Romans lost in some of the conquests....... that I was not aware of. (See, I'm still learning in my quest to be both a polymath and a logician!). :lol:

One thing I should mention, and I think this may be true with you, you can clarify on that if you wish, is that ammilinnialism does not necessarily equate to preterism, full or partial. Ammilinnialism basically looks at what we dispensationalists think of as future events and interpretes them as having a figurative, spiritualized meaning. Preterism looks at many, or most depending on whether they're full or partial preterists, of the Revelation events as having been real events but having been fulfilled in AD 70. While I don't obviously concur with the Ammilinnial position, it at least has a more plausible theological approach to it, IMHO.

Between this and trying to tell a guy on a hockey forum that his proposed payroll for a certain team is completely unworkable :wall ........I'm pooped! :sweaty

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:21 pm 
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We interupt this argument to ask - what is the name of the position that holds to a cyclical view of apocalyptic prophecy? (ie. it has happened, but every time events line up similarly, it will happen similarly until the final "cycle" at the end of time)

Cyclopreterism? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 3:03 am 
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For those who are not already familiar with this attempt by an anti-christic Roman leader, Julian the Apostate, to rebuild the Jewish Temple, here is a telling of the story found in the Ecclesiastical History written in Greek by Salamanius Hermias Sozomenus about 443-450. Sozomen was a native Palestinian and claimed to have his knowledge from eye-witnesses. ("He was a conservative Christian without sympathy for the Jews or for Julian." per Sourcebook author Jacob Marcus)

Quote:
II. The Failure To Rebuild the Temple, 363

Though the emperor hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the [biblical] patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning [the allegorical meaning, through which the Christians could prove the validity of Christianity from the Old Testament].

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the Temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the Temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. [Sacrifice was permitted by Jewish law only in Jerusalem.] The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.

The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. [Since Jesus in the New Testament had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, its rebuilding would make of him a false prophet.] Besides this motive, the Jews themselves [relying on the sympathy of Julian] were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their Temple.

When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the Temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body.

When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them. [The Church Father here records his belief that the Temple could not be rebuilt.]

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the reerection of their Temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the Temple, and consumed several of the workmen. [J. M. Campbell in the Scottish Review, 1900, believed that an explosion of oil put an end to the work. This sounds fanciful.]

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the Temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded - directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful.

A more tangible and still more extraordinary miracle ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses looked like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the Temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were unable to commence it.

Jacob Marcus, The Jew in the Medieval World: A Sourcebook, 315-1791, (New York: JPS, 1938), 8-12


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:33 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:
[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today.]
(Okay, I'll bite! :wink: )

Eastern Wall? I am confused by this. Do you mean the Western Wall? I can't find any mention of an Eastern Wall.

Regarding the Western Wall - my understanding has been that it was a retaining wall & not actually a part of the Temple
Quote:
"The Western Wall commonly refers to a 187 foot (57 m) exposed section of ancient wall situated on the western flank of the Temple Mount. This section faces a large plaza and is set aside for prayer. In its entirety, however, the above ground portion of the Western Wall stretches for 1,600 feet (488 m), most of which is hidden behind residential structures built along its length. Other revealed sections include the southern part of the Wall which measures approximately 80 metres (262 ft) and another much shorter section known as the Little Western Wall which is located close to the Iron Gate. The wall functions as a retaining wall, built to support the extensive renovations that Herod the Great carried out around 19 BCE. Herod expanded the small quasi-natural plateau on which the First and Second Temples stood into the wide expanse of the Temple Mount visible today."

Ben Dov, Meir; Naor, Mordechai; Aner, Ze'ev (1983). "II: Architecture and Archaeology". The Western Wall. Israel: Ministry of Defence Publishing House. pp. g.41–62. ISBN 965-05-0055-3.


Which, if that be the case, it would seem to be a reasonable argument that not one stone was left upon another of the buildings that Jesus was viewing?

(I see that goalieman has noted much the same, but I am still perplexed by the Eastern Wall reference?)


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:52 am 
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Interesting to note as well as to why the Romans did in fact level the Temple as completely as they did. It's said that there were many jewels and gold built into the stones of the Temple and the Roman soldiers wanted to take the booty with them, thus why they took it apart the way that they did.
Josephus wrote that the Roman soldiers went pretty berzerk and set a fire that raged so hot the gold melted and ran down into the cracks between the stones so the soldiers were prying the stones up to try to get as much of the gold out as they could.

For some reason, that reminds me of the Golden Calf incident when God punished the idolatry of the Israelites by having the guilty put to death by melted gold being poured down their throats. In the history of the Temple destruction, Josephus also wrote about how the soldiers were slaughtering everyone they found in the city whether they were rebels or not and were climbing over stacks of bodies to get to the gold. Both certainly quite grim. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:45 am 
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Admittedly, I take a simplistic approach. It is one of my heart.

I love the Bible.

I love God's people, because He did and still does.

Because if God can love Israel and have a future for her, despite all her rebellion, back-sliding, and wandering, He can have patience, love, and restoration for me.

I love the people of Israel, not because their eyes are open, but because God has made them the "apple of His eye." They are chosen--were chosen to be the people whereby His plan of salvation for all the world would come.

History is His story. It had to have a beginning, with Creation for mankind and for the physical world we enjoy. It will have, like any story, a culmination or ending. In between it will have tremendous struggle and drama, showing the wickedness of mankind and, all the more, the need of a tremendous Savior who can save to the uttermost. This drama, to be the greatest story ever told, will contain grossest evil and greatest glory. Or it wouldn't be worthy of God's story! That Savior, that hero figure, must be glorified and triumphant over the Evil One who wants to destroy God's people. Variously called Satan, the devil, Apollyan, the Serpent, the Beast, the Anti-Christ, the roaring lion. Lucifer, once beautiful angel. Fallen, fallen, how far! Because of the just nature of God, sin must be forgiven or punished. There are no other alternatives.

And here we are, people trying to figure out the great schemes and plans of devil and Almighty God. The marvel is that He, God, has given us a book, which is really a library of sixty-six books. Absolute truth, covering not only Genesis to Revelation--beginning to end--but it is also a love story of God's romance for His wonderfully made, fragile, and sin-flawed creatures who are at the center of God's care and plan.

God has a plan. For you, for me, and for Israel. For Christian. For Jew. For Jew to become part of the Bride of Christ. The story is not over yet. The worst and the best is yet to come. For all must come under the headship and authority of the Christ, willingly (to their extreme joy) or not (to their destruction).


WILL GOD FORGET HIS PEOPLE?

The amazing Biblical record tells us “no.”

In Genesis 10 and 11, God, through His servant Moses, records the genealogy of Noah’s son Shem. The Jews are a Semitic (i.e. of Shem) people. Sadly, millenia later, the world practices anti-Semitism.

In Genesis 11:15-17, Eber, a descendant of Shem, represents another division in the family tree. Eber stands for Hebrew, another name identified with the Jewish people.

In Genesis 11, Terah, a descendant of Eber living in Ur of the Chaldeans, begets Abram.

Abram, whose name means “exalted father,” is born in 2165 B.C. and becomes the progenitor of God’s chosen people.

In Genesis 12, God calls Abram, telling him to, “Get out of your country, from your kindred and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (12:2-3)

This is merely the start. The framework. The promise. The people whereby all of us are blessed. And because God chose these people, who later through spiritual blindness rejected their own Messiah, we choose them too, as a special subject of our love, concern and prayers for their future healing and return to the Father God who always had far more of promise for them than they were able to realize. Just like us.

"The ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10 NKJV)

Logically and theologically, the hero of the story would not let His chosen people and nation be destroyed. Punished, yes. Exiled to wake them up, yes. But not rejected by their own Messiah. That would spell defeat. Ultimately, at least a remnant of the people of Israel must come into the fold or He has lost the battle. And King of Kings, Lord of Lords will surely not lose. Of that I am certain.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:54 am 
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I thought I'd try the colored text approach to reply to justgrace. My reply is in red. I hope it's understandable. :)

She wrote:
Admittedly, I take a simplistic approach. It is one of my heart.

I love the Bible.

I love God's people, because He did and still does.

Because if God can love Israel and have a future for her, despite all her rebellion, back-sliding, and wandering, He can have patience, love, and restoration for me.

I love the people of Israel, not because their eyes are open, but because God has made them the "apple of His eye." They are chosen--were chosen to be the people whereby His plan of salvation for all the world would come.

History is His story. It had to have a beginning, with Creation for mankind and for the physical world we enjoy. It will have, like any story, a culmination or ending. In between it will have tremendous struggle and drama, showing the wickedness of mankind and, all the more, the need of a tremendous Savior who can save to the uttermost. This drama, to be the greatest story ever told, will contain grossest evil and greatest glory. Or it wouldn't be worthy of God's story! That Savior, that hero figure, must be glorified and triumphant over the Evil One who wants to destroy God's people. (Even now He is glorified and triumphant. His resurrection proved that.) Variously called Satan, the devil, Apollyan, the Serpent, the Beast, the Anti-Christ, the roaring lion. Lucifer, once beautiful angel. Fallen, fallen, how far! Because of the just nature of God, sin must be forgiven or punished. There are no other alternatives. (Forgiveness of the whole world has already been accomplished. God, in His mercy gives mankind a time of grace in which the unbeliever, Jew or Gentile, through the working of the Holy Spirit, can come to Him, grasping hold of that forgiveness. In His own time then He, as a just God, must punish rejection and unbelief. Judgment for the individual comes at each person’s death. “It is appointed for man once to die and after that the judgment.” We await the final Judgment, the end of time, when the Lord will finally take all of His elect, Jew and Gentile, to be with Him forever.)

And here we are, people trying to figure out the great schemes and plans of devil and Almighty God. The marvel is that He, God, has given us a book, which is really a library of sixty-six books. Absolute truth, covering not only Genesis to Revelation--beginning to end--but it is also a love story of God's romance for His wonderfully made, fragile, and sin-flawed creatures who are at the center of God's care and plan.

God has a plan. For you, for me, and for Israel. For Christian. For Jew. For Jew (I would add--For all of His elect, believing Jew and Gentile) to become part of the Bride of Christ. The story is not over yet. The worst and the best is yet to come. For all must come under the headship and authority of the Christ, willingly (to their extreme joy) or not (to their destruction). (All are already under the headship and authority of Christ. “All authority is given to me in heaven and in earth. Lo, I am with you always even to the end of the age.” What is the Last Day all about? When the Lord comes on the Last Day those who have oil—believers—will go in to the banquet, and those who have no oil for their lamps—unbelievers--will be turned away. The time of grace for unbelievers will have ended.)


WILL GOD FORGET HIS PEOPLE? (He has promised that no one will pluck us, His people, out of His hand. All believers can take great comfort in that.)

The amazing Biblical record tells us “no.”

In Genesis 10 and 11, God, through His servant Moses, records the genealogy of Noah’s son Shem. The Jews are a Semitic (i.e. of Shem) people. Sadly, millenia later, the world practices anti-Semitism. (It is sad when we are anti-anyone. We are to love our neighbor, Jew and Gentile, as ourselves.)

In Genesis 11:15-17, Eber, a descendant of Shem, represents another division in the family tree. Eber stands for Hebrew, another name identified with the Jewish people.

In Genesis 11, Terah, a descendant of Eber living in Ur of the Chaldeans, begets Abram.

Abram, whose name means “exalted father,” is born in 2165 B.C. and becomes the progenitor of God’s chosen people.

In Genesis 12, God calls Abram, telling him to, “Get out of your country, from your kindred and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (12:2-3)

This is merely the start. The framework. The promise. The people whereby all of us are blessed. (They are important in as much they are a part of God’s magnificent plan. The plan is what is all important.) And because God chose these people, who later through spiritual blindness rejected their own Messiah, we choose them too, as a special subject of our love, concern and prayers for their future healing and return to the Father God who always had far more of promise for them than they were able to realize. (I pray for Jews as I pray for all who are headed for eternal destruction as a result of their rejection of Christ.) Just like us. (!!)

"The ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10 NKJV)

Logically and theologically, the hero of the story would not let His chosen people and nation be destroyed. (All of the elect are God’s chosen people. Thankfully He preserves us!) Punished, yes. Exiled to wake them up, yes. But not rejected by their own Messiah. (The Lord wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. He even says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but wants the wicked to turn from their way and live. The Lord turns away only because of the hardness of a person’s heart. It is the unbeliever who rejects Christ.) That would spell defeat. (Jesus declared complete victory when He descended into hell before He arose. When He said “It is finished” His victory was complete. His resurrection is proof of that.) Ultimately, at least a remnant of the people of Israel must come into the fold or He has lost the battle. (There are thankfully Jews who have come to faith in their Savior, and there will be more before Christ comes again. The victory has been won.) And King of Kings, Lord of Lords will surely not lose. Of that I am certain. (Amen to that!)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:47 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Southern Doc wrote:
[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today.]
(Okay, I'll bite! :wink: )

Eastern Wall? I am confused by this. Do you mean the Western Wall? I can't find any mention of an Eastern Wall.

Regarding the Western Wall - my understanding has been that it was a retaining wall & not actually a part of the Temple
Quote:
"The Western Wall commonly refers to a 187 foot (57 m) exposed section of ancient wall situated on the western flank of the Temple Mount. This section faces a large plaza and is set aside for prayer. In its entirety, however, the above ground portion of the Western Wall stretches for 1,600 feet (488 m), most of which is hidden behind residential structures built along its length. Other revealed sections include the southern part of the Wall which measures approximately 80 metres (262 ft) and another much shorter section known as the Little Western Wall which is located close to the Iron Gate. The wall functions as a retaining wall, built to support the extensive renovations that Herod the Great carried out around 19 BCE. Herod expanded the small quasi-natural plateau on which the First and Second Temples stood into the wide expanse of the Temple Mount visible today."

Ben Dov, Meir; Naor, Mordechai; Aner, Ze'ev (1983). "II: Architecture and Archaeology". The Western Wall. Israel: Ministry of Defence Publishing House. pp. g.41–62. ISBN 965-05-0055-3.


Which, if that be the case, it would seem to be a reasonable argument that not one stone was left upon another of the buildings that Jesus was viewing?

(I see that goalieman has noted much the same, but I am still perplexed by the Eastern Wall reference?)


Good point to bring up, QVA (ignoring the "cyclyism" reference :P ). The names "eastern wall" and "western wall" were clearly not what those structures were called when the Temple was still in existance. When looking thru various concordences, you see names like "Solomon's wall", "Wall of Aelia" and other such names given to the structures sorrounding the actual Temple. But my understanding is as well that these walls were retaining walls and not part of the Temple itself. Sooooo, "one stone not upon another" seems an accurate statement of what happened in AD 70.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:54 am 
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justgrace wrote:
Admittedly, I take a simplistic approach. It is one of my heart.

I love the Bible.

I love God's people, because He did and still does.

Because if God can love Israel and have a future for her, despite all her rebellion, back-sliding, and wandering, He can have patience, love, and restoration for me.

I love the people of Israel, not because their eyes are open, but because God has made them the "apple of His eye." They are chosen--were chosen to be the people whereby His plan of salvation for all the world would come.

History is His story. It had to have a beginning, with Creation for mankind and for the physical world we enjoy. It will have, like any story, a culmination or ending. In between it will have tremendous struggle and drama, showing the wickedness of mankind and, all the more, the need of a tremendous Savior who can save to the uttermost. This drama, to be the greatest story ever told, will contain grossest evil and greatest glory. Or it wouldn't be worthy of God's story! That Savior, that hero figure, must be glorified and triumphant over the Evil One who wants to destroy God's people. Variously called Satan, the devil, Apollyan, the Serpent, the Beast, the Anti-Christ, the roaring lion. Lucifer, once beautiful angel. Fallen, fallen, how far! Because of the just nature of God, sin must be forgiven or punished. There are no other alternatives.

And here we are, people trying to figure out the great schemes and plans of devil and Almighty God. The marvel is that He, God, has given us a book, which is really a library of sixty-six books. Absolute truth, covering not only Genesis to Revelation--beginning to end--but it is also a love story of God's romance for His wonderfully made, fragile, and sin-flawed creatures who are at the center of God's care and plan.

God has a plan. For you, for me, and for Israel. For Christian. For Jew. For Jew to become part of the Bride of Christ. The story is not over yet. The worst and the best is yet to come. For all must come under the headship and authority of the Christ, willingly (to their extreme joy) or not (to their destruction).


WILL GOD FORGET HIS PEOPLE?

The amazing Biblical record tells us “no.”

In Genesis 10 and 11, God, through His servant Moses, records the genealogy of Noah’s son Shem. The Jews are a Semitic (i.e. of Shem) people. Sadly, millenia later, the world practices anti-Semitism.

In Genesis 11:15-17, Eber, a descendant of Shem, represents another division in the family tree. Eber stands for Hebrew, another name identified with the Jewish people.

In Genesis 11, Terah, a descendant of Eber living in Ur of the Chaldeans, begets Abram.

Abram, whose name means “exalted father,” is born in 2165 B.C. and becomes the progenitor of God’s chosen people.

In Genesis 12, God calls Abram, telling him to, “Get out of your country, from your kindred and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (12:2-3)

This is merely the start. The framework. The promise. The people whereby all of us are blessed. And because God chose these people, who later through spiritual blindness rejected their own Messiah, we choose them too, as a special subject of our love, concern and prayers for their future healing and return to the Father God who always had far more of promise for them than they were able to realize. Just like us.

"The ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10 NKJV)

Logically and theologically, the hero of the story would not let His chosen people and nation be destroyed. Punished, yes. Exiled to wake them up, yes. But not rejected by their own Messiah. That would spell defeat. Ultimately, at least a remnant of the people of Israel must come into the fold or He has lost the battle. And King of Kings, Lord of Lords will surely not lose. Of that I am certain.


I like your unaltered text here just as it is.................it has no need for editing. :) :wink: :like

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:18 pm 
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I wonder, what is Mike Huckabee's view of eschatology? I haven't heard him speak of it directly. Does anyone know?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:16 pm 
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There was an edition of Newsmax a little while back that had this as it's feature ("When will Christ return" I think it was titled) and Huck had an article about the subject in that edition. I only read snippets of it (they still offer that edition in their subscription drive emails), but Huck is definately a futurist as to Christ physically returning to earth. Whether he's pre, mid, or post trib I'm not sure of. It would seem he has a futurist view of Israel as well. Maybe one of his past church members can chime in. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:23 pm 
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maryjthom wrote:
I thought I'd try the colored text approach to reply to justgrace. My reply is in red. I hope it's understandable. :)


Mary, I always admire your faith in Christ. But I think you have perhaps misunderstood the aim of my last comments. My intention was to point out the gratitude that God would want for us to have for His chosen people. Because of all we owe this people, we need to help them in their time of need as a nation now.

The Genesis verses I shared point out the roots from earliest history of how God chose a particular people to bring to earth His plan. Genesis reveals the first mention of Semitism. First mention of Eber (Hebrew). First mention of Abram, later called Abraham. First mention of the Covenant of God with man. The roots of the Jewish people can be traced to Noah's son Shem. This in itself is remarkable historical context from that ancient time found nowhere else.

God prepared the Hebrew people as the earthly family of His Son, Jesus Christ. They have been vital to faith, law, and the Bible itself. My little list was just a start. At the time of God's call to Abram, they had not yet been called Israel or Jews.

Yes, the Jewish people have been at times weak and unbelieving. They did not realize the wealth of their spiritual heritage. But do we as a nation do better in recalling God's hand of mercy upon us in America? Just as God at times overlooked the sins of Israel for the sake of David, his servant, so we also can for the sake of Christ overlook the lack of faith of His earthly people. We can pray for them today, that they will understand and accept their Messiah in Christ Jesus.

I see so much of hatred for the Jew, based on the fact that they crucified Jesus Christ. Jesus said that, yes, they rejected Him, but it was for a forgivable reason--that they did not know Him. Jesus on the cross said, in fact, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." We are just as guilty of crucifying Christ as the Jewish people. The fact that the Roman (Gentile) system of law convicted Him in a Gentile court and crucified Him with an extremely cruel method shows that all of us crucified Christ. Basically, our sins and rebellion put Him on the cross.

I will be happy to try to explain my positions on other eschatalogical questions, even though there are others far more qualified. But this is long enough for now, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Salamanius Hermias Sozomenus

My grandfather had one of those surgically removed once. :wink:

Quote:
...about 443-450. Sozomen was a native Palestinian

Just to throw in one more thing to muddy the waters here...I'd like to clarify that from ancient times there have been Arabs living in the land called Palestine, but there is no such thing as a "native Palestinian," per se. In other words, there is no race of Palestinians. And there isn't such a country (with its own government) called "Palestine."

When you hear on the news about "the Palestinians," what they are really referring to is Arabs who live in the land called Palestine, in territories which used to be under Arab control, were re-conquered in 1967, and until recently were under complete Israeli control.

For much more on this subject (included a discussion thread far longer than this one), do a search on HA for "Palestinian."

'Nite, all! <3

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:24 am 
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justgrace wrote:
maryjthom wrote:
I thought I'd try the colored text approach to reply to justgrace. My reply is in red. I hope it's understandable. :)


Mary, I always admire your faith in Christ. But I think you have perhaps misunderstood the aim of my last comments. My intention was to point out the gratitude that God would want for us to have for His chosen people. Because of all we owe this people, we need to help them in their time of need as a nation now.

The Genesis verses I shared point out the roots from earliest history of how God chose a particular people to bring to earth His plan. Genesis reveals the first mention of Semitism. First mention of Eber (Hebrew). First mention of Abram, later called Abraham. First mention of the Covenant of God with man. The roots of the Jewish people can be traced to Noah's son Shem. This in itself is remarkable historical context from that ancient time found nowhere else.

God prepared the Hebrew people as the earthly family of His Son, Jesus Christ. They have been vital to faith, law, and the Bible itself. My little list was just a start. At the time of God's call to Abram, they had not yet been called Israel or Jews.

Yes, the Jewish people have been at times weak and unbelieving. They did not realize the wealth of their spiritual heritage. But do we as a nation do better in recalling God's hand of mercy upon us in America? Just as God at times overlooked the sins of Israel for the sake of David, his servant, so we also can for the sake of Christ overlook the lack of faith of His earthly people. We can pray for them today, that they will understand and accept their Messiah in Christ Jesus.

I see so much of hatred for the Jew, based on the fact that they crucified Jesus Christ. Jesus said that, yes, they rejected Him, but it was for a forgivable reason--that they did not know Him. Jesus on the cross said, in fact, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." We are just as guilty of crucifying Christ as the Jewish people. The fact that the Roman (Gentile) system of law convicted Him in a Gentile court and crucified Him with an extremely cruel method shows that all of us crucified Christ. Basically, our sins and rebellion put Him on the cross.

I will be happy to try to explain my positions on other eschatalogical questions, even though there are others far more qualified. But this is long enough for now, I think.


Grace, I do feel that we have become friends as we have taken our HA journey together. I had hoped sometime we might meet. One of the disappointments I had when Huckabee decided not to run was the realization that that will probably not happen—but we will meet in heaven! 

When I think of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob, Judah, and their descendants, down to Ruth, and Mary and Joseph, I am amazed at how the Lord used sinful human beings no better than we to carry out His plan of salvation. My gratitude is not so much to them as to the Lord for preserving a line of people in order to fulfill His promise to Adam and Eve—and us. I am thankful to Him for having the story of His plan written down to assure us of His faithfulness.

I do not see any directive in scripture for us to love the Jews any more or less than we should love our other fellow men. Just as the Jews do not inherently merit the Lord’s love, we do not owe them more love than others. Neither do the Jews today deserve blame for the shouts of “Crucify Him!” that were raised 2000 years ago. We are to love them as we love ourselves.

I am certainly grateful that the Israelites in the Old Testament taught their children to know the promises of God, just as I am grateful for the faith of our fathers who passed those promises on to us. We don’t owe the unbelieving Jews of today anything except the love we owe to all who do not know their Savior. We want to let our lights shine through our love for them just as we do to all others.

The Jews were indeed blessed to have the Savior come from their line. It is sad that so many have rejected that Savior. Jesus wept over them. God’s preservation of His people through the Old Testament is truly remarkable. Thank you, Lord, for being so longsuffering and patient with the Jews—and with us! Yes, each time we sin we are driving the nails into Jesus’ hands and feet.

The Lord never overlooks sins. He has punished all sin in Christ. He in love patiently leads us to repentance—sometimes through loving discipline. There are plenty of examples of that with the Jews, and I could list plenty of examples in my own life of this. It would not be loving to overlook the sins of the Jews. The Lord does not overlook the sin of unbelief; that is the one sin that damns. (“He who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15)

We don’t overlook their sin; neither should we look down on them. We point them to their Savior and pray that the Holy Spirit through the Word will cause faith to grow in their hearts.

Here are a few places to look to see that being a member of God’s people is equated with being God’s children/children of Abraham. The ones whom God considers His people are all believers:

Matthew 3:9 9 “…Do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Romans 9:25-26, quoting Hosea: “ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[a]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them
‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[b]

Galatians 3:7-97 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[a] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

I won't be able to respond any more for a while. Everyone have a good week.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:40 am 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Southern Doc wrote:
[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today.]
(Okay, I'll bite! :wink: )

Eastern Wall? I am confused by this. Do you mean the Western Wall? I can't find any mention of an Eastern Wall.

Regarding the Western Wall - my understanding has been that it was a retaining wall & not actually a part of the Temple.


Which, if that be the case, it would seem to be a reasonable argument that not one stone was left upon another of the buildings that Jesus was viewing?

(I see that goalieman has noted much the same, but I am still perplexed by the Eastern Wall reference?)


OK...well...first the Mea Culpa - yes "Western Wall." But the point of dispute remians the same. The Western Wall is the most celebrated because it was the designated place for wailing by the Romans after the Temple's destruction (and likely closest to the Holy of Holies). The exposed fragment was also nearest, and within sight of the old main entrance to the Temple grounds from inside the city. But all the Temple Mount walls remained to some degree (the Eastern Wall, which was also the exterior wall of the city itself, still has nine courses of mega lithic Hasmodean era [Herold's Temple] foundation stones).

Now we can quipple about whether the walls for the Temple Mount itself "count" as the Temple itself. So let's.

The account of the incident in question is contained in Matt 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. All involve Jesus being asked about the awe inspiring "stones" and "buildings." Matt and Mark indicated he had just left the Temple when this occured. It is reasonable to conclude he was standing near the West -South entrance when he made the response to the disciple's inquiry. A literalist disciple would need to include the "overthrow" of the mega lithic Ashlars (foundation stones of the complex itself which are still intact) which were all about him to completely fulfill the literal meaning.

Also Jesus clearly sees the whole complex as the Temple when he is casting out the money changers and merchants who were certainly not in the inner Temple complex but the Court of the Gentiles (where children "out of the mouths of babes" were also permited). [John 2; Luke 19; Matt 21; Mark 11]. "My Temple shall be a place of prayer for all nations," is particularly powerful given that the Court of the Gentiles had been turned into a corrupt Walmart.

But NONE OF THIS actually matters because the hyperbolic use of "no stone on another" is also used by Jesus in Luke 19 to refer to the destruction of the city itself:

Quote:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”


Well that is simply not literally true. Much of Jesusalem was destroyed but there remained, and still remain, portions of its buildings and walls from that time period.

Some of the reluctance I think rests in not accepting hyperbole for what it is:

This: :pigflying :pigflying :pigflying

The use of hyperbole is to emphasize the COMPLETE TRUTH of a thing (or in the case of the flying pig the completer "truth" of its falsity). Some folks when they say: "It's just hyperbole," seem to imply that means it isn't true or you can somehow dismiss it. WRONG. The use of hyperbole means just the opposite. It is an effort to "go over the heads" of legalistic literal word smiths who want to limit a meaning (that IS NOT YOU GUYS in ANY WAY).

Biblical hyperbole doesn't mean "you can dismiss it;" it means the Truth is greater than mere words.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

What does this mean? It means,

It is easier for :pigflying , than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Some have tried to construct an alternative meaning by inventing a mythical "Eye of the Needle" gate we have no evidence of until local tour guides began telling wealthy pilgrims of one in the 19th century. [or a Greek language game involing a bend in a rope] The alledged gate where camels would have to be unburdened and crawl through, makes a good preacher story but it does violence to the clear meaning of the text. The invented story makes the meaning more, "it's really, really, hard" rather than how the apostles clearly heard it from the following passages (saying, "but who then can be saved?"). The answer is not, "you if you unburden yourself and get on your knees," (however true that might be in another context) but simply YOU can't.

But God can do all things. The lesson was designed to provide no way to have a self-made-man, self-righteous, confidence; but leave only an utter reliance on God.

Hyperbolic Truth is how we understand "Turn the other check," "Give to everyone who asks, and to not ask for it back," "Resist not an evil person."

Catholic scholars (and most other Christian groups) have understood these passages as hyperbolic challenges to the dominant legalistic teaching of the Scribes that you only had to follow the letter of the code of "eye for eye," and not its higher fundamental Truth to Love God and Love neighbor.

So I'm left with what I see as the clear meaning of "not one stone on another," - the total destruction of what was to be a Temple to God but had clearly become a "stumbling block."

No foundation can be laid, than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.

_________________
"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:55 am 
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maryjthom wrote:
justgrace wrote:
maryjthom wrote:
I thought I'd try the colored text approach to reply to justgrace. My reply is in red. I hope it's understandable. :)


Mary, I always admire your faith in Christ. But I think you have perhaps misunderstood the aim of my last comments. My intention was to point out the gratitude that God would want for us to have for His chosen people. Because of all we owe this people, we need to help them in their time of need as a nation now.

The Genesis verses I shared point out the roots from earliest history of how God chose a particular people to bring to earth His plan. Genesis reveals the first mention of Semitism. First mention of Eber (Hebrew). First mention of Abram, later called Abraham. First mention of the Covenant of God with man. The roots of the Jewish people can be traced to Noah's son Shem. This in itself is remarkable historical context from that ancient time found nowhere else.

God prepared the Hebrew people as the earthly family of His Son, Jesus Christ. They have been vital to faith, law, and the Bible itself. My little list was just a start. At the time of God's call to Abram, they had not yet been called Israel or Jews.

Yes, the Jewish people have been at times weak and unbelieving. They did not realize the wealth of their spiritual heritage. But do we as a nation do better in recalling God's hand of mercy upon us in America? Just as God at times overlooked the sins of Israel for the sake of David, his servant, so we also can for the sake of Christ overlook the lack of faith of His earthly people. We can pray for them today, that they will understand and accept their Messiah in Christ Jesus.

I see so much of hatred for the Jew, based on the fact that they crucified Jesus Christ. Jesus said that, yes, they rejected Him, but it was for a forgivable reason--that they did not know Him. Jesus on the cross said, in fact, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." We are just as guilty of crucifying Christ as the Jewish people. The fact that the Roman (Gentile) system of law convicted Him in a Gentile court and crucified Him with an extremely cruel method shows that all of us crucified Christ. Basically, our sins and rebellion put Him on the cross.

I will be happy to try to explain my positions on other eschatalogical questions, even though there are others far more qualified. But this is long enough for now, I think.


Grace, I do feel that we have become friends as we have taken our HA journey together. I had hoped sometime we might meet. One of the disappointments I had when Huckabee decided not to run was the realization that that will probably not happen—but we will meet in heaven! 

When I think of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob, Judah, and their descendants, down to Ruth, and Mary and Joseph, I am amazed at how the Lord used sinful human beings no better than we to carry out His plan of salvation. My gratitude is not so much to them as to the Lord for preserving a line of people in order to fulfill His promise to Adam and Eve—and us. I am thankful to Him for having the story of His plan written down to assure us of His faithfulness.

I do not see any directive in scripture for us to love the Jews any more or less than we should love our other fellow men. Just as the Jews do not inherently merit the Lord’s love, we do not owe them more love than others. Neither do the Jews today deserve blame for the shouts of “Crucify Him!” that were raised 2000 years ago. We are to love them as we love ourselves.

I am certainly grateful that the Israelites in the Old Testament taught their children to know the promises of God, just as I am grateful for the faith of our fathers who passed those promises on to us. We don’t owe the unbelieving Jews of today anything except the love we owe to all who do not know their Savior. We want to let our lights shine through our love for them just as we do to all others.

The Jews were indeed blessed to have the Savior come from their line. It is sad that so many have rejected that Savior. Jesus wept over them. God’s preservation of His people through the Old Testament is truly remarkable. Thank you, Lord, for being so longsuffering and patient with the Jews—and with us! Yes, each time we sin we are driving the nails into Jesus’ hands and feet.

The Lord never overlooks sins. He has punished all sin in Christ. He in love patiently leads us to repentance—sometimes through loving discipline. There are plenty of examples of that with the Jews, and I could list plenty of examples in my own life of this. It would not be loving to overlook the sins of the Jews. The Lord does not overlook the sin of unbelief; that is the one sin that damns. (“He who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15)

We don’t overlook their sin; neither should we look down on them. We point them to their Savior and pray that the Holy Spirit through the Word will cause faith to grow in their hearts.

Here are a few places to look to see that being a member of God’s people is equated with being God’s children/children of Abraham. The ones whom God considers His people are all believers:

Matthew 3:9 9 “…Do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Romans 9:25-26, quoting Hosea: “ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[a]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them
‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[b]

Galatians 3:7-97 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[a] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

I won't be able to respond any more for a while. Everyone have a good week.


Mary, I hope very much that we can meet sometime. You are obviously a dear sister in Christ. I agree with all the things you have said about the basis of faith being not in bloodline but in faith that comes by the Holy Spirit. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." In that, we are also "accepted (as Gentile believers) in the beloved." The basis of our acceptance is through relationship with Jesus Christ, as our Savior, and what He has done for us. That is what is of most importance.


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