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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:33 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Southern Doc wrote:
[By the way "not one stone on top of another" is pretty clearly hyperbolic (kinda like "eat of my flesh" :wink: ) as the Eastern Wall of the Old Temple is still there today.]
(Okay, I'll bite! :wink: )

Eastern Wall? I am confused by this. Do you mean the Western Wall? I can't find any mention of an Eastern Wall.

Regarding the Western Wall - my understanding has been that it was a retaining wall & not actually a part of the Temple.


Which, if that be the case, it would seem to be a reasonable argument that not one stone was left upon another of the buildings that Jesus was viewing?

(I see that goalieman has noted much the same, but I am still perplexed by the Eastern Wall reference?)


OK...well...first the Mea Culpa - yes "Western Wall." But the point of dispute remians the same. The Eastern Wall is the most celebrated because it was the designated place for wailing by the Romans after the Temple's destruction (and likely closest to the Holy of Holies). The exposed fragment was also nearest, and within sight of the old main entrance to the Temple grounds from inside the city. But all the Temple Mount walls remained to some degree (the Eastern Wall, which was also the exterior wall of the city itself, still has nine courses of mega lithic Hasmodean era [Herold's Temple] foundation stones).

Now we can quipple about whether the walls for the Temple Mount itself "count" as the Temple itself. So let's.

The account of the incident in question is contained in Matt 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. All involve Jesus being asked about the awe inspiring "stones" and "buildings." Matt and Mark indicated he had just left the Temple when this occured. It is reasonable to conclude he was standing near the East -South entrance when he made the response to the disciple's inquiry. A literalist disciple would need to include the mega lithic Ashlars (foundation stones of the complex itself) which were all about him to completely fulfill the literal meaning.

Also Jesus clearly sees the whole complex as the Temple when he is casting out the money changers and merchants who were certainly not in the inner Temple complex but the Court of the Gentiles (where children "out of the mouths of babes" were also permited). [John 2; Luke 19; Matt 21; Mark 11]. "My Temple shall be a place of prayer for all nations," is particularly powerful given that the Court of the Gentiles had been turned into a corrupt Walmart.

But NONE OF THIS actually matters because the hyperbolic use of "no stone on another" is also used by Jesus in Luke 19 to refer to the destruction of the city itself:

Quote:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”


Well that is simply not literally true.

Some of the reluctance I think rests in not accepting hyperbole for what it is:

This: :pigflying :pigflying :pigflying

The use of hyperbole is to emphasize the COMPLETE TRUTH of a thing. Some folks when they say: "It's just hyperbole," seem to imply that means it isn't true or you can somehow dismiss it. WRONG. The use of hyperbole means just the opposite. It is an effort to "go over the heads" of legalistic literal word smiths want to limit a meaning (that IS NOT YOU GUYS in ANY WAY).

Biblical hyperbole doesn't mean "you can dismiss it;" it means the Truth is greater than mere words.
[Grace here: Kinda like Huckabee saying that when God spoke to him it was "louder" than an audible voice?]]"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

What does this mean? It means,

It is easier for :pigflying , than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Some have tried to construct an alternative meaning by inventing a mythical "Eye of the Needle" gate we have no evidence of until local tour guides began telling wealthy pilgrims of one in the 19th century. [or a Greek language game involing a bend in a rope] The alledged gate where camels would have to be unburdened and crawl through, makes a good preacher story but it does violence to the clear meaning of the text. The invented story makes the meaning more, "it's really, really, hard" rather than how the apostles clearly heard it from the following passages (saying, "but who then can be saved?"). The answer is not, "you if you unburden yourself and get on your knees," (however true that might be in another context) but simply YOU can't.

But God can do all things. The lesson was designed to provide no way to have a self-made-man, self-righteous, confidence; but leave only an utter reliance on God.

Hyperbolic Truth is how we understand "Turn the other check," "Give to everyone who asks, and to not ask for it back," "Resist not an evil person."

Catholic scholars (and most other Christian groups) have understood these passages as hyperbolic challenges to the dominant legalistic teaching of the Scribes that you only had to follow the letter of the code of "eye for eye," and not its higher fundamental Truth to Love God and Love neighbor.

So I'm left with what I see as the clear meaning of "not one stone on another," - the total destruction of what was to be a Temple to God but had clearly become a "stumbling block."

No foundation can be laid, than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.



:wink: OK, it is rather entertaining and certainly educational to hear you wise ones go back and forth. In the process we are all learning, who read.

Quote:
Now we can quipple about whether the walls for the Temple Mount itself "count" as the Temple itself. So let's.

The account of the incident in question is contained in Matt 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. All involve Jesus being asked about the awe inspiring "stones" and "buildings." Matt and Mark indicated he had just left the Temple when this occured. It is reasonable to conclude he was standing near the East -South entrance when he made the response to the disciple's inquiry. A literalist disciple would need to include the mega lithic Ashlars (foundation stones of the complex itself) which were all about him to completely fulfill the literal meaning.


Have you considered the possibility that the full fulfillment of the Eastern Wall (or Western) not being completely destroyed may yet be future? :wink: Just like many if not most of the prophecies had an immediate, partial fulfillment and yet we must look forward to "that day" when Jesus will return to fulfill the rest? (Which I have come to believe)

Some things could not or will not be fulfilled except Jesus is given the Scepter and all the nations are judged. The book of Revelation speaks of not just personal judgment for sins, but more specifically about the judgment of nations and peoples on earth, not in heaven. (After Revelation 4:1-4, the Church is spoken of as being in Heaven. The martyrs are the "saints" around His feet, there, having their tears wiped away.) And yet, judgment is taking place on earth. It is Jesus who will ride forth on the white horse and who will tread the grapes of God's wrath. In that role He will wear the crown as King of Kings (nations) and Lord of Lords (powers). I believe it is part of the triumphal entry of the Savior yet to be fulfilled. (Palm Sunday was but a lesson of things to come.) Jesus came as a man of peace on earth the first time. He will come again as a man of war, in triumph.

Also, I noticed in Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24 that he talked about the "buildings" themselves. Not necessarily the walls?

Quote:
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. [Wonder if He had never seen them all?]. :wink:


And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Matt. 24:1-2)

I guess I am enough of a literalist to think that when Jesus says "Assuredly," and "not one stone" that He wanted to emphasize that He meant "not one stone." I understand the hyperbole in the "eye for an eye" concept that justice means restitution. But I tend to think there is something more to come that must happen for this to be fulfilled wholly. And guess what stands on the Temple Mount right now?

Certainly, for all practical purposes the Temple worship and system of sacrifices was ended. It happened the day the veil was rent in two! OK, maybe not "that day" all sacrifice ceased. But that day God sent quite an unmistakable message that for His part the perfect Lamb of God had been slain, once for all, and the fulfillment of the Ages had come. The sacrificial system of a lamb for a person's sin was ended--fulfilled, actually.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:54 pm 
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A point or two from me. One is that, as we can see from some of the verses quoted, there should always be a clear difference made between what I'd call a wooden literalistic approach to scriture and a commonsense literal approach. As an example, if you told someone that you were going to build a new house for your family, a wooden literal understanding would assume that person was going to build the house all by themself with no helpers or work contracted out. The commonsense understanding that most would have would assume that you were literally going to have a house built but that you were having other people do some or most of the work. In the case of "no stone upon another", it's not really necessary that every single stone be dislogded in order to make it a literal prophecy (though that could well have been the case and there ain't no Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount these days :wink: ), only that the destruction of the Temple be an actual devasting event, which it was. Another example is in Revelation where it says "He will wipe the tears from their eyes". The Lord need not be wiping away with a kleenex to make this a literal prophecy that He will comfort our souls once we are in his presence.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:49 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
A point or two from me. One is that, as we can see from some of the verses quoted, there should always be a clear difference made between what I'd call a wooden literalistic approach to scriture and a commonsense literal approach. As an example, if you told someone that you were going to build a new house for your family, a wooden literal understanding would assume that person was going to build the house all by themself with no helpers or work contracted out. The commonsense understanding that most would have would assume that you were literally going to have a house built but that you were having other people do some or most of the work. In the case of "no stone upon another", it's not really necessary that every single stone be dislogded in order to make it a literal prophecy (though that could well have been the case and there ain't no Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount these days :wink: ), only that the destruction of the Temple be an actual devasting event, which it was. Another example is in Revelation where it says "He will wipe the tears from their eyes". The Lord need not be wiping away with a kleenex to make this a literal prophecy that He will comfort our souls once we are in his presence.


Thank you for addressing the subject of literalism. Some of our disagreements here have been, I think, that we do not all mean the same thing by that word. Of course, there is symbolism and picturesque language involved at times in Scripture. And no small dose of mystery.

The point I like to make is that every word of God is true. But that does not mean He does not have the freedom to use poetic license or hyperbole. That point is well-taken. And rather like I find to be true with music, we often are much more deeply moved in our soul or spirit to understand words with the addition of melody, rhythm, harmony, and variety of instruments. God seems to use quite a variety of style using various penmen throughout history. And as Southern Doc says, this language can actually help us understand the meaning better.

Just think of how Jesus used parables. Usually a parable was a story that taught one important truth. Jesus did not give all the truth at once. And with the disciples, it was obvious they were not able to understand even that fully. Even though they were privileged to have the Master Teacher living and mentoring among them!

Thanks to whatever readers are aboard here. Of course, Gov. Huckabee is not currently running for President of the USA. He is still going to be very influential in working with conservatives and within the Republican Party to bring about unity and a simpler, better government, because he cares about the people of this nation. And just because he is a devout Christian and these are things he could discuss extensively, the important thing is that his solutions and ideas are based on workable solutions and vertical politics. He has many admirers from within the churches, including his own Baptist denomination, but also many Catholics and every other denomination. He has conservative principles, but he is also compassionate and practical. Thus even nonreligious conservatives find he makes lots of sense. Even many with polar opposite religious beliefs and liberal positions still love the man because they see his integrity and kindness.

All this is to say that while Gov. Huckabee has a reason to love Israel because he has deep sympathy and ties to the biblical land, he also has great political instincts that would not involve trying to set up some sort of theocracy. Our relationship with Israel politically needs to be a balance of wise foreign policy for us and protection of them as an important Middle East ally.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:24 am 
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goalieman wrote:
", it's not really necessary that every single stone be dislogded in order to make it a literal prophecy (though that could well have been the case and there ain't no Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount these days :wink: ), only that the destruction of the Temple be an actual devasting event, which it was.


Actually it would be necessary. Literal is defined as (Webster):

a: according with the letter of the scriptures
b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual
c: free from exaggeration or embellishment

Otherwise it is something else like metaphore, allusion, simile, or say...hyperbole. :wink:

But the main point remains:

The event conveyed in Luke 21 is not the same as in Luke 19.

Luke 21, Mark 13, Matt 24 concern a conversation about the destruction of the Temple.

In Luke 19 Jesus uses the same language to refer to the destruction of the entire city of Jerusalem.


41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Well...there are still today Second Temple Period stones built upon another. They left quite a bit actually if you're a literalist about it. Much of the Southern City Wall remains (19 courses [layers] of very large stones ). The Western and Eastern Temple Mount Wall don't just have the 9 visible courses still stacked one on top of another but a further 12 to a depth of 52 feet below the modern street grade. City walls are buildings as people worked and lived, and hid under seige, within them. But if one prefers, you can walk through the archeological exhibits of remnant homes and palaces of the Upper City today (with many a Second Temple Period stone on top of another). Then there's Herold's three great towers all remained and were left in place after the 70 A.D. destruction of the city. Sixty feet of the main tower still remains.

Not one stone on top of another is a hyperbolic statement meaning "total destruction."

When we talk today of the "total destruction" of Nazi Germany or the city of Hiroshima we all know both what is meant and the fundamental truth of it.

Jesus was most certainly a true prophet of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple. His language made clear the loss would not be minor but complete. We need not fear that we are somehow faithless when we take him at his word as he clearly intended it rather than torture the archeological evidence of what still remains of that broken city until it fits a ruthless "literalism."

Well that's my view. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:50 am 
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In all 3 references in the synoptic Gospels, Jesus specifically says "buildings". It's not likely that He would say "thrown down to the ground" about walls that were already built into the ground to shore it up. So there is no problem taking Him literally.

In Luke 19, from the context, it is pretty clear that Jesus was looking at the Temple. You can see the Temple from the Mount of Olives (my DH was blessed to participate in a pilgrammage there about a decade ago), so He would have been viewing it closer & closer as He progressed, and the very next sentence after He says, "and they will not leave one stone upon another in you", it says "And He entered the Temple and began to drive out the sellers...". So, it would seem that He was standing right there before the Temple as He spoke.

Luke 21, coming after the words in Luke 19, has Him repeat what He said previously, but with greater specificity. So the initial reference was clearly vaguer than the succeeding one.

(And the irony of all this is that, though I believe this fulfilled the Lord's prophecy, I also believe that there will be a final destruction of Jerusalem that will be total - so I am actually sort of on everyone's side in this argument! :lol: )


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:36 am 
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Quote:
QuoVadisAnima wrote:

In Luke 19, from the context, it is pretty clear that Jesus was looking at the Temple. You can see the Temple from the Mount of Olives (my DH was blessed to participate in a pilgrammage there about a decade ago), so He would have been viewing it closer & closer as He progressed, and the very next sentence after He says, "and they will not leave one stone upon another in you", it says "And He entered the Temple and began to drive out the sellers...". So, it would seem that He was standing right there before the Temple as He spoke.

)


It doesn't matter what "comes next" to come to the catholic (in the broadest sense of the word :wink: ) interpretation that Jesus is weeping over the city of Jerusalem. Certainly the Temple is a part of the City, but it is not all of it. He is clearly talking of the city as a whole and that has long been the understanding of these verses including among Catholic scholars. Jesus, in two seperate incidents, predicts the complete destruction (no stone on top of another) of BOTH the Temple AND the City; one (weeping over the destruction of the City) as he is entering the City of Jerusalem from Bethany (triumpahntly); the other as he is leaving the Temple and foretells its complete destruction as well.


Luke 19:

41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

The "you" in this passage is not the Temple but the city of Jerusalem itself. That is the clear meaning.

If you don't believe me you might ask Fr. Jose Quintana of Holy Land Catholic Tour - In the Footsteps of Jesus Christ.

On Day 7 of the tour:

Quote:
We ascend the Mount of Olives to enjoy a magnificent panoramic view of Jerusalem's Old City and the Judean desert. Visit the Church of the Ascension, (Matt. 28:16, 18-20), The Church of Pater Noster and then make our way down the Palm Sunday walk, pausing at Dominus Flevit, where Jesus wept over Jerusalem, (Luke 19:41-44), and end at the serene Garden of Gethsemane


http://www.bluehearttravel.com/tourist- ... lic-tours/

The Franciscans at Dominus Flevit ("The cry of the Lord") Church at the rock tearrace overlooking Jerusalem from outside the Old City Walls might also be surprised that Jesus only had the Temple in mind for His tears.

Quote:
Dominus Flevit Church is a small Fransciscan church located on the upper western slope of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

Bible trivia buffs know that the shortest verse in the Bible is John 11:35, when "Jesus wept" over the death of Lazarus. But Dominus Flevit, which means "the cry of the Lord," commemorates a different occasion on which Jesus was moved to tears.

According to Luke 19:41, "As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it" because "the days will come upon you when your enemies will... dash you to the ground." (Christians believe this was fulfilled in 70 CE, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.) Dominus Flevit Church is believed to mark the place where Jesus' mourning over Jerusalem occurred.


http://www.sacred-destinations.com/isra ... church.htm

I know I am getting snarky at this point so I want to say how much I truly respect QVA, goalieman, justgrace, and everyone else here who are so Berean in their love to search the scripture to know what is true and right. God Bless you all. Thanks for a stimulating discusion. Really.

"As iron shapens iron, one man sharpens another." (don't worry ladies the "man" part is not to be taken literally :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:48 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:

In Luke 19, from the context, it is pretty clear that Jesus was looking at the Temple. You can see the Temple from the Mount of Olives (my DH was blessed to participate in a pilgrammage there about a decade ago), so He would have been viewing it closer & closer as He progressed, and the very next sentence after He says, "and they will not leave one stone upon another in you", it says "And He entered the Temple and began to drive out the sellers...". So, it would seem that He was standing right there before the Temple as He spoke.

Quote:
...

Luke 19:

41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”


The "you" in this passage is not the Temple but the city of Jerusalem itself. That is the clear meaning.

...

I know I am getting snarky at this point so I want to say how much I truly respect QVA, goalieman, justgrace, and everyone else here who are so Berean in their love to search the scripture to know what is true and right. God Bless you all. Thanks for a stimulating discusion. Really.

"As iron shapens iron, one man sharpens another." (don't worry ladies the "man" part is not to be taken literally :wink: )
[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words, Southern Doc. And blessings to you. I, too, like a stimulating discussion. It makes us think--and maybe pray for more discernment for ourselves to understand the vast mysteries God has lent to us to examine. Aren't you a little glad that we have not been able to fully figure everything out? It keeps Bible study fresh. It gives us some answers to look forward to when we get to heaven.

Wouldn't you have loved to be one of those two disciples on the road to Emmaus, where the resurrected Jesus opened Scripture to them concerning His death and resurrection? First He rebuked them as being foolish for not believing all the prophecies about Messiah (the Christ).

Quote:
O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! [Ouch!]

Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"

And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25-27)


Would I ever love to sit in on that conversation!


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:26 am 
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Popping in briefly from my brief respite of churning the millstone at work (okay, slight hyperbole there :wink: ) to say, was the Temple and Jerusalem destroyed in the dictionary meaning of destroyed? I think the answer would be clearly yes. So Jesus' words conveyed a literal, historic event, not an allegorical or spiritualized meaning. That's my point with all of this. Using images like you see used in Revelation may in themselves not be literal (i.e. a dragon with 7 heads) but what it represents is literal (the 7 forms of Roman government, with the last one being the imperial rule of the Ceasar's). Now, back to the millstone. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:43 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Popping in briefly from my brief respite of churning the millstone at work (okay, slight hyperbole there :wink: ) to say, was the Temple and Jerusalem destroyed in the dictionary meaning of destroyed? I think the answer would be clearly yes. So Jesus' words conveyed a literal, historic event, not an allegorical or spiritualized meaning. That's my point with all of this. Using images like you see used in Revelation may in themselves not be literal (i.e. a dragon with 7 heads) but what it represents is literal (the 7 forms of Roman government, with the last one being the empiral rule of the Ceasar's). Now, back to the millstone. :wink:



Websters: 1) destroy=ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of: to ruin as if by tearing to shreds

2) or it can mean "to kill." (a person)


When Jesus talked about the buildings called the Temple, He was talking about the ruining of the structure, and He specified not one stone would remain on top of its next of kin. :wink:

When Jesus in Mark 14:58, at His trial before the Jewish High Priest, Caiaphas, was accused falsely of wanting to tear down the Temple, His accusers misinterpreted a different, previous prediction. Jesus had, early in His ministry, when He cleared the Temple of money changers, predicted that the Jews would destroy (kill) His body, but that he would raise it up in three days. In that instance He meant the second definition of destroy="to kill." And He also said that He would raise His own body up again in three days.

Twas the prediction of Jesus' death and resurrection recorded in John 2. It was the fodder of the Jewish leaders' false accusation in court against Him. He gave this prediction right after clearing the temple of money-changers. The Jews wanted a sign to tell that He had the authority to drive out money-changers. This is the sign He gave them:

Quote:
John 2:19-21--"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.


What is the Greek word translated "destroy"? (kataluo)

In Matthew 24:1-2, the word "destroy" is not used, exactly. It is "thrown down." The concordance defines the word as "demolish (literal or figurative), to dissolve, overthrow, throw down."

Jesus specified, though, that "not one stone here [of the Temple buildings] would be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

The building construction would still be in progress, because the Temple construction begun by Herod the Great in 20 B.C. was not completed until A.D. 64, just a few years before the Romans tore it all down. The disciples were probably marveling over the huge stones, each about 10-12 feet in length and weighing tons, that were being used in construction. I remember seeing a photo from Huckabee's last trip to Jerusalem of the road below the temple where the huge stones had fallen many centuries ago, obliterating and blocking it.

So Jesus was possibly talking about all the destruction being limited to just A.D. 70, but why then did He talk about all the things that would happen before the end of the world? I thought it rather significant that the discussion immediately went toward "the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt 24:3) Jesus launches into warnings about not being deceived by false prophets who claim, "I am the Christ." Wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation; kingdom against kingdom. "All these things are the beginning of birth pains." (Matt. 24:8)

Jesus talked about how before the end there will be persecution, martyrdom, nations hating His disciples because of hating Him. Jesus talked about apostasy, false prophets, a cooling off of love for Him. This would only be significant many years after the Gospel had been spread throughout the world. And then, the verse that shows how very close we must be to the end:

Quote:
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)


It is interesting that the Wycliffe Bible Translators have made a goal to translate a portion of the Bible into every language of the world by 2025. So far they have had a part in over 700 translations of different languages and dialects. And they are ahead of schedule due to the use of computers and satellites. A translator may now sit in a remote jungle area, stream by satellite a translation of a portion of Scripture directly from the mouth of a native resident, and within minutes it is saved at a central computer, reviewed in minutes. So what once took years of tedious work is happening with amazing speed.

Looks like the end is near.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:58 am 
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This discussion of Israeli policy has drifted into quite an interesting discussion. Before leaving this subject of how the prophecies of the Bible will come about, I wanted to post a little more on past prophecies and the future. I found this summary of one Old Testament book of prophecy that is relevant. Micah. Will the temple be rebuilt? Why? Will Jerusalem end up in the hands of Israel?

Much of the answer is future and difficult for us to understand. It is beyond the policies of the United States or the President to cause. But just as part of Micah and other prophecies have been fulfilled, the rest of prophecy will be, too. That I believe. And I still believe that our country should want to be on the winning side by supporting this ally. Of course, there are a multitude of secular, or foreign policy, reasons as well.

MICAH

Chapter 5:2 is the most well-known verse from this prophet, regarding the birthplace of the Messiah, Jesus Christ:

Quote:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth have been from of old,
From everlasting."


Jesus was born in Bethlehem, as was King David. But the everlasting throne belongs to Jesus Christ, who has always existed as God's Son and will rule in the end.

Quote:
Verse 3: "Therefore He shall give them [Jacob, AKA Israel] up, [to their enemies, to other nations]
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth [Mary- see Is. 7:14];
Then the remnant of His brethren [see also Micah 4:7]
Shall return to the children of Israel."


These Prophecies of Micah are Now Fulfilled:

~ Fall of Samaria Micah 1:6-7 in 722 B.C.
~ Invasion of Judah by Sennacherib 1:9-16 in 702-701 B.C.
~ Fall of Jerusalem 3:12; 7:13 in 586 B.C.
~ Exile in Babylon 4:10 in 586 B.C.
~ Return from Captivity 4:1-8, 13; 7:11, 14-17 in 520 B.C.
~ Birth of Jesus in Bethlehem 5:2

Future Kingdom Blessings:

a. Millennial temple will be prominent in the world (4:1a)
b. People of the world will be attracted to Jerusalem (4:1b)
c. Jerusalem will be the place of instruction for entire world (4:2a)
d. Revelation will go forth from Jerusalem (4:2b)
e. The Lord will be the judge at Jerusalem (4:3a)
f. Peace will be universal (4:3b)
g. Israel will dwell in security and peace (4:4)
h. Israel will be spiritually sensitive to God (4:5)
i. Israel will be regathered (4:6)
j. Israel will be made strong (4:7)
k. Israel will have dominion (4:8)

(from Bible Knowledge commentary)

I will end with God's blessing and promise to Israel and her Messiah (Christ Jesus):

Quote:
"As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,
I will show them marvelous thingsl"

The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might...
They shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of You.

Who is a God like You, [Jesus]
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.
He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all our sins
Into the depths of the sea.
You will give truth to Jacob
And mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers
From days of old. (Micah 7:15-20)


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:09 pm 
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What were the Old Testament Scriptures about? What was the message that God was trying to get across in those 39 books?

Jesus’ disciples thought they knew. Before Jesus died, rose, and ascended, they thought that the Old Testament Scriptures were God trying to tell them about a coming earthly kingdom of the Messiah. They were anxious to hold positions of prestige in that kingdom. They looked at everything that Jesus did as a possible beginning of that great earthly kingdom.

I think we would all agree that Jesus’ disciples were wrong. But was their mistake just one of timing, or were they wrong about the nature of the kingdom as well?

If the dispensationalists are right, then the disciples were looking for the right thing, but at the wrong time. If the dispensationalists are wrong, then the disciples were not only wrong about the timing, but were wrong about the nature of the kingdom itself.

Which is it? Jesus Himself points us to a correct understanding in His words to the disciples on the day of His ascension. This is how Luke records that event:

He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” (Note: “The Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” was the technical term used by the Jews for all of the Old Testament Scriptures.)

“Then He opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem...’” (Luke 24:44ff – NIV).

Notice what Jesus did not say. He did not open their understanding so that they would now see that the earthly kingdom was coming, but not now. Rather, He opened their understanding so that they would focus their attention on something far more valuable than an earthly kingdom. He summarized the entire Old Testament (including its many prophecies) by simply saying, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations…”

So what was the Old Testament about? What is Jesus’ kingdom about? It is about forgiveness of sins and the preaching of that message. It is through the forgiveness of sins that Jesus establishes His rule in the hearts of men. It is through the preaching of the forgiveness of sins that Jesus’ kingdom – which is a spiritual kingdom – grows. One believer at a time is added, each one being a new stone added to that spiritual temple.

And what about the message of an earthly kingdom? It is a distraction from the real message. It turns attention away from the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins.

The message that my sins are forgiven is not as exciting to my sinful human nature as the message of a glorious earthly kingdom would be, but it should be! Think about it. Whoever has full and free forgiveness for all of his sins has heaven and everything that really matters.

If you are looking for a ministry that is really focused on the message that Jesus wanted His disciples to proclaim, then look for one that focuses on the forgiveness of sins, not on some hoped-for material, earthly kingdom.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:59 pm 
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Question to the above post: Do you believe there will ever be an earthly kingdom ruled over by the Lord himself or will it only ever be a spiritual kingdom?

As far as what ministry to give to or get involved with, all the Dispensational viewpoint ministries that I'm associated with have a passion for spreading the gospel and making believers all across the globe. Thank God I found these ministries, it's made a world of difference in my life!

I should add that it's very obvious that Jesus' disciples were looking for an earthly kingdom but at the wrong time. Interesting that in Acts chapter 1:6,7 his followers asked "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them. It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power". Seems Jesus, if an earthly kingdom of any kind was not to be, would have put to rest any such thought like this that his disciples obviously had in their minds. That he did not do so appears to be a clear indication that a physical kingdom at a later date is very much a part of his plan for both the church and Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:50 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Question to the above post: Do you believe there will ever be an earthly kingdom ruled over by the Lord himself or will it only ever be a spiritual kingdom?

As far as what ministry to give to or get involved with, all the Dispensational viewpoint ministries that I'm associated with have a passion for spreading the gospel and making believers all across the globe. Thank God I found these ministries, it's made a world of difference in my life!

I should add that it's very obvious that Jesus' disciples were looking for an earthly kingdom but at the wrong time. Interesting that in Acts chapter 1:6,7 his followers asked "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them. It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power". Seems Jesus, if an earthly kingdom of any kind was not to be, would have put to rest any such thought like this that his disciples obviously had in their minds. That he did not do so appears to be a clear indication that a physical kingdom at a later date is very much a part of his plan for both the church and Israel.


Perhaps the most direct answer that Scripture has for your question is found in Luke 17:20-21. There the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming. In answering their question, Jesus points out that the kingdom of God is not something that you can point to and say, “Look, here it is,” or “There it is.” Rather, Jesus says, “The kingdom of God is within you.” Jesus’ answer turns the question away from “When is it going to happen?’ Instead He shows them that their entire understanding of the kingdom as a physical, earthly kingdom is wrong.

Here are a few thoughts on the Kingdom:

When the incarnate Son of God came into this world 2,000 years ago, the purpose of His coming was to establish His Kingdom.

Both John the Baptizer and Jesus Himself notified the world of what Jesus’ first coming was all about when they proclaimed: “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt. 3:2; 4:17). When Jesus sent out His disciples on a short preaching tour (Mt 10), He told them to proclaim that same message: “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Jesus told His followers that the establishing of the kingdom would happen during their lifetimes: “I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God” (Lk 9:27).

Jesus came to set up a Kingdom, but His Kingdom was not to be like the kingdoms that we see all around us in this world. As He later told Pontius Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world” (Jn 18:36).

The kingdoms of this world are established by asserting military and political power over earthly opponents and their physical armies. That was not Jesus’ goal. If it were, then, as Jesus told Pilate, his servants would be taking up arms and fighting (Jn 18:36).

No, Jesus came to establish a spiritual Kingdom. And He did it by fighting a battle against mankind’s great spiritual enemy, Satan. He came to do battle against Satan’s kingdom and to take away Satan’s power over sinners.

That’s why He began His public ministry by resisting the devil’s temptations in the wilderness. And when He cast out demons who had possessed people, He was giving a visual demonstration of what He had come to do. Satan was “a strong man, fully armed,” waging constant battle against the souls of men, women and children. But Jesus was the Stronger One who had come to take on Satan and take away from him all his armor on which he had relied” (Lk 11:14-22).

When Jesus said, “It is finished” and died on the cross, His battle against Satan had been won. By completing His life of perfect obedience and His perfect payment for all sin, Jesus had established a spiritual kingdom where sinners may find forgiveness of sins, life, and eternal salvation. All who enter this kingdom by faith in Jesus are completely safe from Satan. Satan may still threaten them and even do them physical harm, but they are still forgiven children of God and heirs of eternal life. As Martin Luther wrote about the devil and his allies in his hymn "A Mighty Fortress is Our God": “And take they our life, goods, fame, child, and wife,…they yet have nothing won. The Kingdom ours remaineth.”

I became a son of the kingdom of God the day I came to faith in Jesus as my Savior. All of the blessings of the kingdom are mine. But as long as I am in this sinful world, I will not have the full enjoyment of those blessings. For that, I will have to wait until the Lord takes me to heaven. That may be when He comes again in judgment or when my earthly body dies. When Jesus comes in judgment, I look forward to hearing Him say: "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt 25:34).



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 am 
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mikethom, thank you for the beautiful message of inclusion for those who trust in Christ as Savior. Yes, it is the kingdom of God.

But I have come to believe that, while that is all there is to salvation, God has other prophecies yet to be fulfilled that require our attention. And one of those is the unfulfilled aspect of what will God do with the Jews and their land? What does the Bible say to this yet incompletely fulfilled aspect?

You have brought up an interesting subject of the Kingdom of God. As I study the Bible, this is one of those mysteries that we can learn about, but the full extent of God's meaning and purpose will await the fulfillment of the ages.

We could spend a whole "nother" week here beginning to scratch that surface!

What did Jesus say about the Kingdom of God? You brought up some good verses. but to me they each raised some more questions. :lol:

For now, I think the Kingdom of God is wherever Jesus Christ is and whatever He, the King, touches--of things past, present, or future. We, as Christian believers, are willing subjects. The rest of the world is not, but He is still their King, although in not such a benign way.

Many things to think about...Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:45 am 
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OK! That period of [my] silence didn't last long! :lol:

I have been trying to make sense of the Luke 17:20-22 verses. So, if the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees, but they rejected Jesus as their Messiah, perhaps there is another meaning for the word translated "within."

In the Strong's Concordance--second in use only to Scriptures for me! :wink:--I looked up the Greek word endidusko [the best I can do without the Greek letters] translated "within." The root meaning is to "invest," in the traditional sense or putting on a vest or garment.

And the word for "observation" where Jesus says, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation," means in the Greek, "ocular [eyeball] evidence."

So in that sense and context, perhaps what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees was something more like this:

"You proud and disbelieving men are asking when the kingdom of God will come? The kingdom on earth, where the people of Israel will throw off the Roman yoke and a Messiah will sit on his throne here? You are looking everywhere except at Me; you are missing that the Scriptures are talking of Me!

"But God's kingdom doesn't come like you are looking for it. Not with looking around with your eyes for visible evidence. It doesn't come with saying or hearing, 'Look here at this or there at that.' For, in fact, surely your King is here before you. I am He. The kingdom of God was invested (clothed) within your Holy Scriptures, of which you are guardians. It was entrusted to you, the caretakers of My word and truth! And indeed the King is right before your eyes. You are seeing Him without believing in Him; you are hearing Him but keep on looking for someone else to better suit your ideas. But Jehovah invested within the Jewish nation--within your priests and prophets and leaders--this knowledge of Messiah. Some day you will desire to see, to look back and wish you had recognized the Son of Man [always a reference to the incarnate Christ] but you will have to say, 'We missed the obvious!'"

And then, Jesus launches into His prophecy of what it will be like in the End Times.
vs. 25--what must come first--His suffering and rejection
vs. 27--Noah-like days of drunkenness and adultery
vs. 28--Lot-like days when people would ignore all the signs before destruction and judgment
vs. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the son of Man is revealed." They will "see," then, but it will be too late.
vs. 31--In those days, don't turn back to worldly things, like Lot's wife did
vs. 33--Preserve your life. Look up! Don't be left behind!
vs. 37--Look for the evidence around you, Where? The eagles will gather around the carrion. Does that mean during Armageddon? Not sure.

But it's food for thought!


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:16 am 
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Mikethom1, it would appear that your answer to my question is no, there will not be any physical kingdom set up by Jesus in the future. I would dare say that you have to ignore many, many verses of scripture to reach that conclusion (and when I get more time, I may well list a bunch of them if justgrace doesn't beat me to it!). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:43 am 
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justgrace wrote:
OK! That period of [my] silence didn't last long! :lol:

I have been trying to make sense of the Luke 17:20-22 verses. So, if the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees, but they rejected Jesus as their Messiah, perhaps there is another meaning for the word translated "within."

In the Strong's Concordance--second in use only to Scriptures for me! :wink:--I looked up the Greek word endidusko [the best I can do without the Greek letters] translated "within." The root meaning is to "invest," in the traditional sense or putting on a vest or garment.

And the word for "observation" where Jesus says, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation," means in the Greek, "ocular [eyeball] evidence."

So in that sense and context, perhaps what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees was something more like this:

"You proud and disbelieving men are asking when the kingdom of God will come? The kingdom on earth, where the people of Israel will throw off the Roman yoke and a Messiah will sit on his throne here? You are looking everywhere except at Me; you are missing that the Scriptures are talking of Me!

"But God's kingdom doesn't come like you are looking for it. Not with looking around with your eyes for visible evidence. It doesn't come with saying or hearing, 'Look here at this or there at that.' For, in fact, surely your King is here before you. I am He. The kingdom of God was invested (clothed) within your Holy Scriptures, of which you are guardians. It was entrusted to you, the caretakers of My word and truth! And indeed the King is right before your eyes. You are seeing Him without believing in Him; you are hearing Him but keep on looking for someone else to better suit your ideas. But Jehovah invested within the Jewish nation--within your priests and prophets and leaders--this knowledge of Messiah. Some day you will desire to see, to look back and wish you had recognized the Son of Man [always a reference to the incarnate Christ] but you will have to say, 'We missed the obvious!'"

And then, Jesus launches into His prophecy of what it will be like in the End Times.
vs. 25--what must come first--His suffering and rejection
vs. 27--Noah-like days of drunkenness and adultery
vs. 28--Lot-like days when people would ignore all the signs before destruction and judgment
vs. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the son of Man is revealed." They will "see," then, but it will be too late.
vs. 31--In those days, don't turn back to worldly things, like Lot's wife did
vs. 33--Preserve your life. Look up! Don't be left behind!
vs. 37--Look for the evidence around you, Where? The eagles will gather around the carrion. Does that mean during Armageddon? Not sure.

But it's food for thought!


I commend you for using your concordance to dig deeper into the Scriptures. I would caution you, however, that if you somehow get off on the wrong track and trace the wrong Greek word, it may lead to strange or incorrect conclusions.

Your use of Greek above is an example. The Greek word to which you allude is not found anywhere in Luke 17:20-21. It is found in Luke 16:19, which speaks of the rich man being clothed (endidusko) in purple and fine linen. In Luke 17:21, the Greek word that is translated "within" is entos. It is a preposition meaning "within, in the midst of, or among." It is used only here and in Matthew 23:26, where Jesus reproves the Pharisees for being concerned about outward appearances but not their inner spiritual corruption: "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside (Greek: to entos, "that which is on the inside") of the cup and dish that the outside of them may be clean also."

Jesus' point in Luke 17 was not that the Pharisees were somehow among the citizens of God's Kingdom, but that the Kingdom itself was an inner, spiritual Kingdom rather than a visible, external kingdom. It wasn't something that they had to look for as if it was still coming; it was already among them. The King was already there establishing His Kingdom, and there were already citizens of the Kingdom living and walking among them.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm 
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mikethom1 wrote:
justgrace wrote:
OK! That period of [my] silence didn't last long! :lol:

I have been trying to make sense of the Luke 17:20-22 verses. So, if the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees, but they rejected Jesus as their Messiah, perhaps there is another meaning for the word translated "within."

In the Strong's Concordance--second in use only to Scriptures for me! :wink:--I looked up the Greek word endidusko [the best I can do without the Greek letters] translated "within." The root meaning is to "invest," in the traditional sense or putting on a vest or garment.

And the word for "observation" where Jesus says, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation," means in the Greek, "ocular [eyeball] evidence."

So in that sense and context, perhaps what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees was something more like this:

"You proud and disbelieving men are asking when the kingdom of God will come? The kingdom on earth, where the people of Israel will throw off the Roman yoke and a Messiah will sit on his throne here? You are looking everywhere except at Me; you are missing that the Scriptures are talking of Me!

"But God's kingdom doesn't come like you are looking for it. Not with looking around with your eyes for visible evidence. It doesn't come with saying or hearing, 'Look here at this or there at that.' For, in fact, surely your King is here before you. I am He. The kingdom of God was invested (clothed) within your Holy Scriptures, of which you are guardians. It was entrusted to you, the caretakers of My word and truth! And indeed the King is right before your eyes. You are seeing Him without believing in Him; you are hearing Him but keep on looking for someone else to better suit your ideas. But Jehovah invested within the Jewish nation--within your priests and prophets and leaders--this knowledge of Messiah. Some day you will desire to see, to look back and wish you had recognized the Son of Man [always a reference to the incarnate Christ] but you will have to say, 'We missed the obvious!'"

And then, Jesus launches into His prophecy of what it will be like in the End Times.
vs. 25--what must come first--His suffering and rejection
vs. 27--Noah-like days of drunkenness and adultery
vs. 28--Lot-like days when people would ignore all the signs before destruction and judgment
vs. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the son of Man is revealed." They will "see," then, but it will be too late.
vs. 31--In those days, don't turn back to worldly things, like Lot's wife did
vs. 33--Preserve your life. Look up! Don't be left behind!
vs. 37--Look for the evidence around you, Where? The eagles will gather around the carrion. Does that mean during Armageddon? Not sure.

But it's food for thought!


I commend you for using your concordance to dig deeper into the Scriptures. I would caution you, however, that if you somehow get off on the wrong track and trace the wrong Greek word, it may lead to strange or incorrect conclusions.

Your use of Greek above is an example. The Greek word to which you allude is not found anywhere in Luke 17:20-21. It is found in Luke 16:19, which speaks of the rich man being clothed (endidusko) in purple and fine linen. In Luke 17:21, the Greek word that is translated "within" is entos. It is a preposition meaning "within, in the midst of, or among." It is used only here and in Matthew 23:26, where Jesus reproves the Pharisees for being concerned about outward appearances but not their inner spiritual corruption: "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside (Greek: to entos, "that which is on the inside") of the cup and dish that the outside of them may be clean also."

Jesus' point in Luke 17 was not that the Pharisees were somehow among the citizens of God's Kingdom, but that the Kingdom itself was an inner, spiritual Kingdom rather than a visible, external kingdom. It wasn't something that they had to look for as if it was still coming; it was already among them. The King was already there establishing His Kingdom, and there were already citizens of the Kingdom living and walking among them.


I will have to disagree with you here, Mike. Here is how I found that word. I looked up the word, "within" in the front part of the Strong's Concordance. Then I found Luke 17:21 and found the words, "the kingdom of God is within you" with the little reference number for the word within, and it is 1737. Then, going to the Greek section (making sure not to look in the Hebrew) I found the word endusko. This is the definition from which the word "within" was translated in this instance: "a prol. form of 1746; to invest (with a garment): - clothe in, wear." The NIV comments that this word can mean "among you." And here is what Dr. Ryrie comments in the Bible notes:

Quote:
The kingdom of God is within you. Better, among you. The necessary elements of the kingdom were there present and needed only to be recognized. It cannot mean "within you," for the kingdom certainly was completely unconnected with the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking. (vs. 20)


I would think it more likely that the vestiture that was the kingdom was outside their hearts, and not within. Of course, the point is valid that if we have accepted Jesus and His work for us into our hearts, by believing, we become a part of the saved, the children of God by faith.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:48 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Mikethom1, it would appear that your answer to my question is no, there will not be any physical kingdom set up by Jesus in the future. I would dare say that you have to ignore many, many verses of scripture to reach that conclusion (and when I get more time, I may well list a bunch of them if justgrace doesn't beat me to it!). :)



OK, goalieman, you hesitated too long! :lol: But you may add some more.

A kingdom has a king, an area of domain, and a length of reign, for starters.

In Revelation 11, two of the woes are past and the third coming quickly. The seventh trumpet then is blown and the angel announces, and loud voices in heaven:

"The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" (Rev. 11:14)

"Then the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,

'We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants, the prophets, and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:17-18)

Revelation 12:1-6 represents Israel as a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a garland of twelve stars," who gives birth to a Child. How do we know? Look in Genesis 37:9 where Joseph describes his dream that represents how his brothers will become the nation Israel:

Quote:
Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." (Genesis 37:9)


The eleven becomes twelve when you add Joseph in as one of the sons of Israel.

Thus the Child (Jesus Christ) (vs. 2) is represented as being born of the woman (Israel) in Revelation 12:1-2.

And lest there be doubt as to the child's identity or the mother's, verse 5 describes her male child and what he will do to defeat the red dragon in verses 4-5.
Quote:
And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne [the Ascension]. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Revelation 12:5)


The number of these days would be equal to the last half, or 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period on earth. No mention is made of the days between the Ascension and the Tribulation, mentioned also in Matthew 24:21.

While the war on earth will be fought, the war in heaven will commence (another kingdom over which Jesus Christ will gain the ultimate victory). Satan and his angels (remember, one-third of all angels followed him when he fell from heaven before creation--Isaiah 14:12-15) are defeated and cast out of heaven, onto earth to deceive the earth.

Quote:
Then I hear a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." (Revelation 12:10-11)


The kingdoms over which Jesus Christ will reign include heaven and earth. Jesus is depicted as ruling earth with a rod of iron in verse 5. This must be future, for now we know Him as the King of Love, our Shepherd.

This whole scene in Chapter 12 depicts earth's kingdoms judged, the great struggle on earth and in heaven with Satan, the dragon. And especially, Israel is mentioned as the progenitor of Jesus, the Messiah, her Child. When Satan is cast from heaven (where we know from Job that he was allowed audience at times) he falls with great fury upon the earth, and particularly upon Israel. She (Israel) would be totally destroyed were it not for God's intervention. (See verses 13-17)

It is interesting to note that in verse 17, there is a remnant of Israel who will believe: "the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

So, in conclusion He shall reign forever and ever. He is God and Jesus Christ specifically. And Jesus is the Child of Israel. And after Satan is cast out of heaven someday, we will no longer have Satan around to accuse us before the throne of heaven.

What a kingdom! What a King of Kings, and Lord of Lords!

I think I just hijacked my own thread! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:02 pm 
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justgrace wrote:
mikethom1 wrote:
justgrace wrote:
OK! That period of [my] silence didn't last long! :lol:

I have been trying to make sense of the Luke 17:20-22 verses. So, if the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees, but they rejected Jesus as their Messiah, perhaps there is another meaning for the word translated "within."

In the Strong's Concordance--second in use only to Scriptures for me! :wink:--I looked up the Greek word endidusko [the best I can do without the Greek letters] translated "within." The root meaning is to "invest," in the traditional sense or putting on a vest or garment.

And the word for "observation" where Jesus says, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation," means in the Greek, "ocular [eyeball] evidence."

So in that sense and context, perhaps what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees was something more like this:

"You proud and disbelieving men are asking when the kingdom of God will come? The kingdom on earth, where the people of Israel will throw off the Roman yoke and a Messiah will sit on his throne here? You are looking everywhere except at Me; you are missing that the Scriptures are talking of Me!

"But God's kingdom doesn't come like you are looking for it. Not with looking around with your eyes for visible evidence. It doesn't come with saying or hearing, 'Look here at this or there at that.' For, in fact, surely your King is here before you. I am He. The kingdom of God was invested (clothed) within your Holy Scriptures, of which you are guardians. It was entrusted to you, the caretakers of My word and truth! And indeed the King is right before your eyes. You are seeing Him without believing in Him; you are hearing Him but keep on looking for someone else to better suit your ideas. But Jehovah invested within the Jewish nation--within your priests and prophets and leaders--this knowledge of Messiah. Some day you will desire to see, to look back and wish you had recognized the Son of Man [always a reference to the incarnate Christ] but you will have to say, 'We missed the obvious!'"

And then, Jesus launches into His prophecy of what it will be like in the End Times.
vs. 25--what must come first--His suffering and rejection
vs. 27--Noah-like days of drunkenness and adultery
vs. 28--Lot-like days when people would ignore all the signs before destruction and judgment
vs. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the son of Man is revealed." They will "see," then, but it will be too late.
vs. 31--In those days, don't turn back to worldly things, like Lot's wife did
vs. 33--Preserve your life. Look up! Don't be left behind!
vs. 37--Look for the evidence around you, Where? The eagles will gather around the carrion. Does that mean during Armageddon? Not sure.

But it's food for thought!


I commend you for using your concordance to dig deeper into the Scriptures. I would caution you, however, that if you somehow get off on the wrong track and trace the wrong Greek word, it may lead to strange or incorrect conclusions.

Your use of Greek above is an example. The Greek word to which you allude is not found anywhere in Luke 17:20-21. It is found in Luke 16:19, which speaks of the rich man being clothed (endidusko) in purple and fine linen. In Luke 17:21, the Greek word that is translated "within" is entos. It is a preposition meaning "within, in the midst of, or among." It is used only here and in Matthew 23:26, where Jesus reproves the Pharisees for being concerned about outward appearances but not their inner spiritual corruption: "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside (Greek: to entos, "that which is on the inside") of the cup and dish that the outside of them may be clean also."

Jesus' point in Luke 17 was not that the Pharisees were somehow among the citizens of God's Kingdom, but that the Kingdom itself was an inner, spiritual Kingdom rather than a visible, external kingdom. It wasn't something that they had to look for as if it was still coming; it was already among them. The King was already there establishing His Kingdom, and there were already citizens of the Kingdom living and walking among them.


I will have to disagree with you here, Mike. Here is how I found that word. I looked up the word, "within" in the front part of the Strong's Concordance. Then I found Luke 17:21 and found the words, "the kingdom of God is within you" with the little reference number for the word within, and it is 1737. Then, going to the Greek section (making sure not to look in the Hebrew) I found the word endusko. This is the definition from which the word "within" was translated in this instance: "a prol. form of 1746; to invest (with a garment): - clothe in, wear." The NIV comments that this word can mean "among you." And here is what Dr. Ryrie comments in the Bible notes:

Quote:
The kingdom of God is within you. Better, among you. The necessary elements of the kingdom were there present and needed only to be recognized. It cannot mean "within you," for the kingdom certainly was completely unconnected with the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking. (vs. 20)


I would think it more likely that the vestiture that was the kingdom was outside their hearts, and not within. Of course, the point is valid that if we have accepted Jesus and His work for us into our hearts, by believing, we become a part of the saved, the children of God by faith.


When I provided that the information on the Greek in Luke 17:20-21, I was not relying on a concordance. I was reading it from the Greek text of the New Testament. I studied classical Greek for three years in college and New Testament (Koine) Greek for another three years in seminary. In my years in the public ministry I have written several exegesis papers on selected sections of the Greek New Testament. In studying for my weekly sermons, I begin by going to the Greek original and translating it. So when I wrote above that the Greek word for “within” in that passage is entos, I was not expressing an opinion. It appears that in this case the concordance has misled you. If you still don’t believe me, find someone else who has studied New Testament Greek and ask him or her.


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