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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:14 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Southern Doc wrote:
goalieman wrote:


Firs up, I was hoping that bringing up the personal background of Scofield or any other person being qouted outside of the Bible itself wouldn't be put in play here. This is something those, for example, who don't like America will do by bringing up that many lf the founders were slave holders and therefore everything else they did should have a bad light shed upon it. It's well known that Scofield had his personal issues, but that he sought to do a good work in putting out his study Bible shouldn't be undermined by that. The background of the apostle Paul wasn't so good either before the road to Damascus afterall. :wink:


As to the Scofield Bible itself, the version that I read from had as it's editorial commitee of the 1967 edition the following men:

E. Schuyler English, Litt.D. Chairman

Frank E. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D.

William Culbertson, D.D., LL.D.

Charles L. Feinberg, Th.D., Ph.D,

Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M. Ph.D.

Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D.

Alva J. McClain, Th.M., D.D.

Wilber M. Smith, D.D.

John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D.

That's an impressive list of scholars by any standard, so one can not simply say the Scofield Bible is simply the work of one man, at least not the later versions of it. Many changes due to better scholarship were made to the original 1909 edition.

As to the questions, I'll take a stab at it!

1. Zechariah and numerous other places would place Christ's reign coming from Jerusalem. (That was an easy one!)

2. Depends on where the rebuilt temple is, could be the temple mount, but I'll bet it's in Jerusalem. :wink:

3. Don't really know where in the Temple He'll set up shop, but I suppose he has options. 8)

4. Zechariah 8:20-23 Isaiah 66:7-24 (I'll find more if you need them :wink:

I should also add that I didn't even know what the Scofield Bible was until my early 30's, so I was hardly marinated in it's dispensational leanings. I read that paraphrased Living Bible for most of my life till then, reading a whole bunch of different versions till I settled on my current one (NIV, NASV, etc.). I just happen to like the word changes it makes to the original KJV and the helpful footnotes and concordance, maps, etc. I hear the Ryrie study Bible is good too. :wink:

So, what's my grade here, Doc? :lol:


Yea but not AFTER Damascus. Scofield failed to support his wife and children AFTER he was a minister of the Gospel. His wife's petition for divorce was on the grounds of abandonment in an era in which divorce was extremely rare especially among conservative Christians. She recieved full custody of the children and they remained estranged from their father (and his second wife) the rest of his life. I am well aware of the effort to taint America by pointing to the feet of clay of many founders. But it is fundamental to the study of history to understand context, motivation, and character, when evaluating peoples action, ideas, and influence. Which is why DTS scholars routinely address the past character and lives of a Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or a Mary Baker Eddy for insights into unraveling and discrediting their theology. John Ankerman's "Behind the Mask of Mormonism - From its Early Schemes to its Modern Deceptions" certainly is more than a refutation of doctrinal points of dispute. I don't have a problem with that. But I do think for those who value a Biblical model it is odd to place such store in the teachings of a man who could not qualify for a position of church leadership according to the Apostle Paul in:

1 Timothy 3

1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

The traditionalist Christian position regarding the above text, which I hold, is that you can't lead and shepherd God's Church if you have had more than one wife with the exception given by Jesus that a wife could be divorce on account of her sexual unfaithfulness.
But I suppose some of this can be interpreted more liberally if you need it to be. :wink:


In regard to the Scofield scholars that followed him in later generations:

Actually as a list it is not that impressive in that it constitutes a very narrow bandwidth, all of whom are best known for their association with Dispensationalism and Dallas Theological Seminary. While some of these folks are impressive (and some are not in the sense that they hold honorary "Doctorates" just like Scofield claimed) all of them were heavily influenced, most of them trained and converted by, Scofield and his close associates. Most were educated at and/or taught at Scofield founded DTS. Folks at DTS today can't teach there if they hold any other view on Dispensationalism (http://www.dts.edu/about/doctrinalstatement/) which kind of limits how much they can claim to be more than a body of like minded sectarians coming to the same conclusion as their teachers. It's like saying that the eschatology of a Bible reference produced by Mormon scholars (most of whom are Brigham Young, or satellite school, grads or past Presidents), run off a Mormon Press, would produce anything other than a treatise largely in harmony with the teachings laid down by their founders.

I don't actually think that is a bad thing frankly. Religious institutes (I teach at one) don't contend they have "a" truth but are seeking (and to a large degree have found, the Truth. My institution has a similar Faith statement (though far less detailed) required of the faculty. But sectarian schools and movements have long had to contend with the problem of becoming insulated and incestuous echo chambers. In fact all of Protestantism was in many ways a reaction to the closed loop of dogma that preceeded it. Not uncoinsidentally the Counter Reformation (the Jesuits particularly) was forced to produce quality scholarship and argument which had really been lacking the two previous centuries.

So as you say you don't know where in Jerusalem the Temple will be reestablished, then why are Dispensationalist so concerned with the old Temple site and the abiltiy to rebuild there. Why not just build a Temple anywhere in Jerusalem currently controlled by Israel?

Your grade at DTS would be an "A+" :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:11 am 
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As long as I get an A+ somewhere, I don't care what the institution of higher learning is! :lol:

The problem I have of bringing up the personal failures of people when debating topics like this is that it distracts from the issue at hand. Using the Mormonism example, I wouldn't need to go into the background of it's founder to show that it's a cult religion. I might anyway, but I wouldn't need to. :lol: (And by the way, as far as I know, John Ankerberg is in the dispensationalist camp :wink: ).

As for the scholars I mentioned, Walvoord is the only one listed as having taught at DTS. One of them taught at a fine dispensational school in my backyard, Philadelphia College of Bible! But Moody, Talbot, Grace, and a few others are represented among those scholars. So what I'm trying to say here is that, my scholars can beat up your scholars! :lol:

As to the debate on where the Temple should be built, there's some varied opinions on that which I'm not qualified to give a decisive verdict on. Some think a Jewish Temple could be built right near the same spot as the Dome of the Rock, so tearing down the Dome wouldn't be necessary (Norm Geisler holds that view). Some think the Temple wasn't actually built on the Dome of the Rock site (Randell Price used to hold to that, not sure if he stills does though). As long as it's in Jerusalem, I think it'll work out. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:21 am 
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Meanwhile, Israel is facing the fight of her life, folks. Please pray today for this tiny nation--birthplace, home, people of our Lord Jesus Christ, cradle of Christianity.

Our President unfortunately was not raised with a love for Israel, but is attempting to appease the Arab and Islamic powers of the Middle East that would crush (again) the Jewish people.

And the opening session of the United Nations in September promises to be of dire consequence to Israel. Obama has called some in the European nations to vote against Israel.

With Fatah and Hamas in charge--both terrorist groups who want Israel off the map--you know very well what that will mean. The Fatah may seem more moderate than Hamas, which controls tiny Gaza strip, but their Articles call for Israel to be pushed into the sea. There is an effort, which I can only call Satanic, to do a number like Hitler did on the people of our Savior. We think antisemitism died out, but it is very active now in the Muslim Brotherhood and in the "peace" talks of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is actively trying to unsettle every nation of the Middle East. Do not be fooled by their use of the word, "democracy."

Please read this quote from my article (beginning post on this thread):


Quote:
When I heard our President say that the new Palestinian state he proposes on Israeli land would have borders with “Israel, Jordan, and Egypt,” while Israel would have only borders with Palestine, my first thoughts were of the words “concentration camp.” By the redrawing of lines President Obama proposes, Israel cannot border Lebanon or Syria (the Golan Heights) on the north, either. The encircled, redrawn area left after removing Israeli borders from all entities and countries–the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights, the Sinai, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon–would leave Israel defenseless, with an area no larger than 80 miles long and about 10 miles wide in places. Presumably, Obama would draw a boundary line through half of the city of Jerusalem, across to the Gaza strip and give all land south of this boundary to the new Palestinian state, in addition to the West Bank. In addition, since Lebanon presumably cannot border Israel, additional land to the north of the West Bank would be ceded to a new state called Palestine.

And yet President Obama has the audacity to call his own unprecedented proposals for Israel and the Palestinians the making of peace! This is not peace, but it is a sure recipe for terrorism and war.


So, we have basically three months before Israel's fate may be decided by our President, the Fatah, Hamas, and the United Nations. Unless we can pressure our President and Hilary Clinton to return to a policy that will indeed protect Israel and not keep trying to force her to give up land. I applaud Benjamin Netanyahu for his courage before our House of Representatives. May God use the balance of powers to favor this nation of His son's birth. And prevent the destruction of all the treasures we hold dear, as Christians, also.

Whatever our eschatological views, we do not want another Holocaust. And surely not at the hands of an America that tries, like Neville Chamberlain did in England, to appease an enemy bent on destroying not only the Jews, but also the Christian holy sites and the seat of Western Civilization. And that also means America, its sworn enemy because of our Christian heritage and our past support of Israel and the Jewish people.


Gov. Huckabee understands very well the dilemma Israel faces (and America and the free world by extension and association). Which is one reason I strongly supported him to become President. And it's another why I am saddened he is not running. But we can pray that God will raise up another candidate as strong for American security and that of Israel, our best ally. Also, let us pray that Obama's heart may be changed.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:51 am 
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goalieman wrote:
(And by the way, as far as I know, John Ankerberg is in the dispensationalist camp :wink: ). That was my point. Ankerberg and other DTS grads do not hesitate in the least to point out the questionable motives or backgrounds of others. As they should.

As for the scholars I mentioned, Walvoord is the only one listed as having taught at DTS. One of them taught at a fine dispensational school in my backyard, Philadelphia College of Bible!

As to the debate on where the Temple should be built, there's some varied opinions on that which I'm not qualified to give a decisive verdict on. Some think a Jewish Temple could be built right near the same spot as the Dome of the Rock, so tearing down the Dome wouldn't be necessary (Norm Geisler holds that view). Some think the Temple wasn't actually built on the Dome of the Rock site (Randell Price used to hold to that, not sure if he stills does though). As long as it's in Jerusalem, I think it'll work out. :wink:



Actually no. The group of editors' ties to DTS and Dispensationalism, as well as the abundance of "honorary" doctors among them, are their central defining features:

Alphabetically:

William Culbertson, D.D., LL.D. - these were both “honorary” Doctorates- served as head of DTS allied Moody Theological Institute.

Charles L. Feinberg, Th.D., Ph.D, - Doctorate in Theology from DTS – faculty member of DTS

Frank E. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D. – a gifted and talented editor with a Masters in English from Harvard (his doctorate was “honorary”) he was not and never pretended to be a Biblical or theological scholar. His main role was to be the “style editor.” His father was a noted early Premillennialist movement leader.

Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M. Ph.D. – undergraduate educated at Biola – The Bible Institute of LA was the first founded by Dispensationalist adherents to the Niagara Creed (which was is noted historically as first significant Creed to include premillennialism as a required tenant. Today’s Biola faculty requirement, like DTS and all the colleges these men are affiliated with reads:
Quote:
“ In fulfillment of God’s historical purpose for humanity to rule and establish God’s kingdom on earth (Gen. 1:28; Ps. 8:4-8; Matt. 6:10 Heb. 2:6-9), the Scriptures teach a millennial reign of Christ with his saints on earth following his literal return. The nation of Israel, having been redeemed, will play a central role in bringing the blessings of salvation to all nations during the millennium in fulfillment of biblical prophecies (e.g., Is. 2:1-4, 11:1-12; Jer. 23:5-6; Ezek. 37; Amos 9:9-15; Zech. 14; Matt. 19:28; Acts 1:6, 3:19-21; Rev. 20:4-7). Following the millennium, this kingdom will be merged into the eternal kingdom (I Cor. 15:22-28).
Before these millennial events, the believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:13-17). The time of this “rapture” is unknown, and thus believers are to live constantly watchful and ready.”


Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D. – first graduating class of DTS; Masters DTS; “honorary” Doctorate

Alva J. McClain, Th.M., D.D. – undergraduate educated at Biola – doctorate “honorary” from Biola

Wilber M. Smith, D.D. – Doctorate from DTS

John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D. – he didn’t just teach at DTS he was President of the Seminary for 34 years.


However talented many of these men were, from an accrediting standpoint I can tell you that it’s not good to have over half or your “doctorates” as honorifics. It’s compounded by the fact that only two doctorates are from “outside” in any way. “Honorary” doctorates simply relate the praise that likeminded folks want to grant to those they admire. Academic doctorates require you to “defend” research, knowledge, and positions in an often highly charged and antagonistic environment before a Committee who have already earned their positions and tenure. These folks very often do not share your positions in the least to say the least. My committee of five (for History) had one political “conservative” on it and no believers. That presented a challenge as my work reflected my worldview in both areas. Nonetheless I survived. There is a reason why folks, and scholarship, benefit from such an ordeal. Ironically, what is wrong with current secular academic is the very same creeping sickness of inbreeding and “group think” self-congratulating.
But don’t believe me that these men were a daisy loop of affiliated believers set with the task of defending the conclusions of Scofield. Just ask the Chairman of the editors himself.

E. Schuyler English, Litt.D. (a Litt.D. is an “honorary” doctorate) Chairman –
Here was the Chairman’s statement for the “revision” and assembled “scholars” for the 1967 Scofield Reference Bible:

Quote:
In 1954 a committee of nine men1 was appointed to undertake the task and now, the work being completed, The New Scofield Reference Bible is scheduled for publication soon,2 fifty years from the date of the last edition.
Neither the publisher nor the committee of revision had any intention at any time of altering Scofield’s theological position or system of interpretation, e.g., the plenary inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures, the premillennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth, the pretribulation rapture of the church, and that God has dealt with men in different ways during different dispensations in which man has been responsible as to his obedience to Him. An examination of the names of those who compose the editorial board, and of the institutions with which they are affiliated, should attest the fact of their sympathy with Scofield’s theology.


http://www.galaxie.com/article/4523

The Scofield Reference Bible, whatever its other merits, has been from first to last an effort to advance and elevate the particualrs of Dipensationalism. It is less a "study Bible" and more a "systematic theology" with an emphasis on pre-millennial dispensationalism. That only becomes a problem when folks begin to equate the writing in the margin of the text with the text itself.

I’m also going to need to change your grade to “I” (incomplete) as I still need to know where specifically the Temple’s foundations are to rest and why Scripturally. These seems pretty important if we are to assist in the politics of Israel for reestablishing the Temple.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Question: Do Reformed theologians allow non-Reformed theologians on their boards and editorial commitees? Of course not! So I'm not sure of why there would be such a protest against the scholars on the 1967 Scofield revision. Of course they agreed with the lodestar of the original Scofield, but they made improvements to it as well. It certainly wasn't their intention that anyone would equate the footnotes in that edition with the Biblical text, only to help clarify difficult texts. Fact is, most Christian associations tend to be insular as to the make up of their membership (try being a non-Calvinist and getting a place of prominence within the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals!). I doubt a dispensationalist would be welcomed at Westminster Theological Seminary either (at least not allowed to graduate!).

As for the Temple question, how do you interepret Matthew 24:15 thru 31? There's clearly a Temple in place in those events Christ talks about in those verses. Now unless one believes that "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" all happened in AD 70, then it certainly appears that a future Temple will be built prior to the Lord's second coming. (Wonder if people in China noticed anything in AD 70? :wink: ). As to where it's built, I'll say Jerusalem. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Just a note to bring my previous comments to some kind of conclusion.

As Satan seeks to turn sinners away from their Savior and rob them of eternal life, he has many tools. Most obvious in our society are earthly wealth and material possessions. He uses those very effectively to keep many within his kingdom of death and darkness.

But when it comes to those who are inclined to study the Bible and attend Christian worship services, the focus of his efforts is on corrupting the Bible’s message, the message of full and free forgiveness of sins before God through the holy life and substitutionary death of Christ. That message is THE Good News for all mankind. That message should be the heart and center and focus of all Christian preaching and of every individual Christian’s faith.

So what does Satan do? He tries to shift the focus onto something else. He does not want us to be thinking about sin as our biggest problem and Jesus’ atonement for sin as our greatest blessing and the focus of His kingdom. So Satan encourages the development of corrupted versions of peripheral doctrines of the Bible and tries to elevate their importance in the minds and hearts of his intended targets.

The teaching of dispensational pre-millenialism serves Satan’s purposes very well. It shifts the focus of attention away from Jesus as the Savior from sin and turns it to Jesus as the future earthly millenial King. It opens the door to endless debate on questions of fantastic future events, twisting and turning the apocalyptic passages of Scriptures in a thousand different ways. It engages the mind so fully that there is little room left for hearing what God has to say to me about the inner peace and rest that God has provided for me by laying all my sins on Jesus.

In my last post I asked the question: What relationship, if any, do you see between the death of Christ and the establishing of a future glorious earthly kingdom? That question was left unanswered, which shows how insignificant that question is in the mind of one who is preoccupied with the millenial kingdom. As thoughts of the millenial kingdom ascend, thoughts of Jesus as the suffering and dying Savior from sin fade and no longer occupy center stage. This pleases Satan quite well.

Not only does it fit Satan’s purpose when it comes to distracting individual Christians from what is most import, it also fits his purposes when it comes to bringing destruction and misery among the nations here on earth. If Satan can convince enough Christians that the “Israel” of the Bible is not a spiritual people composed of those who share the faith of Abraham, but rather that the “Israel” of the Bible is the same as the modern nation of Israel, then he can use them to stir up endless bloodshed among the nations.

I realize that many who believe the claims of people like Scofield do believe in Christ as their Savior from sin, and they are brothers and sisters in Christ. My prayer for them is that they may be delivered from all of Satan’s deceptions and spend the rest of their lives rejoicing in and sharing the good news of Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb who has taken away the sins of the world.



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:19 pm 
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goalieman wrote:

As for the Temple question, how do you interepret Matthew 24:15 thru 31? There's clearly a Temple in place in those events Christ talks about in those verses. Now unless one believes that "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" all happened in AD 70, then it certainly appears that a future Temple will be built prior to the Lord's second coming. (Wonder if people in China noticed anything in AD 70? :wink: ). As to where it's built, I'll say Jerusalem. 8)


In a way that can also explain the summary of His statement in verse 34:

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

That leaves literalism out and brings back sybolism, allegory, and hyperbole. That is why it is an area of theology that has long been filled with speculation, theory, argument. It therefore should also be an area of wide Grace and liberty where such speculation does not not assert itself as dogma and further divide the body of Christ. Sadly that was precisely the goal of Scofield - to elevate his understanding of Dispensationalism to the level of "core" "fundamental" beliefs that all "true" Christians must share.

In the name of rightly divining the Word, the issue far too often has simply divided. It is like MikeT points out a fatal distraction of infinite dispute.

I am also like MikeT (whose last post well sums up my thoughts) done.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:53 am 
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Christ used the term "this generation" many times in Matthew and the obvious reference was to them as a spiritually unbelieving generation, not the physical sense of a generation. It follows quite logically that it's the future believing generation of Israelites that His promised return has in focus. The fact is, Matthew 24 blows the whole house of cards down on the Ammillinial/Preterist position. They can't answer to what is clearly spelled out there, so they conveniantly spiritualize the text just as they do anywhere else where it gets in the way of their theology. By why defend the position when you can just attack the opposing viewpoint and those who hold to it? Hey, it works in politics, why not theology!

As to Mikethom's screed earlier, I'll substitute your theological positions for the one's you denounced as heretical and Satan inspired in your sentences if you want to play that game. Quite frankly, you showed me exactly what I sensed from you in earlier exchanges in your last post: divisive, haughty and proud. Didn't answer your question? Hardly! What I did was answer it in a way your closed minded theological box wouldn't allow you to fathom. But hey, just call someone with an opposing view Satanically deceived and, valla, you win!

In closing, if a board moderator wants to enthusiastically associate himself with Mikethom's above post, then this is not a forum I wish to be a part of any longer. I've tried to deal with the issues brought up in this thread with a light touch, but it seems the other side here has not placed any such limits on themselves. I could go the attack route if I so choose to here as well and do quite well in the process, but out of respect to those who keep this board running, I'm not getting in the mud like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:24 am 
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I had taken it as a given that each of us fully believes the faith we profess & it seems to go without saying that we cannot all be correct. Jesus prayed for our unity so this theological division is obviously from someone working against the Lord.

It is unfortunate that mikethom chose to characterize one particular side's pov as demonically inspired rather than speaking to the general truth that division among those who seek to follow Christ is hell's plan & I'm sure he will see the value of apologizing for giving offense.

1 Peter 3:15-16
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

One of my favorite stories that so beautifully illustrates this Scripture verse is about an incident where St. Francis de Sales was discussing theology with a Calvinist leader. When the man started to become angry over a certain point, de Sales apologized humbly and profusely, begging the man's pardon - not because the man's irritation was necessarily just or because he was conceding the point, but because he had not meant to lead a fellow lover of Jesus into sin. He excused himself & said that he would only return if the man desired him to do so. The man did ask him back a few days later & within a short time converted.

The moral of the story FOR ALL OF US is that our theology cannot win souls without our virtue. Let us not end this in a way that offers plastic righteousness to unbelievers.

Please...



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:38 am 
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goalieman wrote:
Christ used the term "this generation" many times in Matthew and the obvious reference was to them as a spiritually unbelieving generation, not the physical sense of a generation. It follows quite logically that it's the future believing generation of Israelites that His promised return has in focus. The fact is, Matthew 24 blows the whole house of cards down on the Ammillinial/Preterist position. They can't answer to what is clearly spelled out there, so they conveniantly spiritualize the text just as they do anywhere else where it gets in the way of their theology. By why defend the position when you can just attack the opposing viewpoint and those who hold to it? Hey, it works in politics, why not theology!

As to Mikethom's screed earlier, I'll substitute your theological positions for the one's you denounced as heretical and Satan inspired in your sentences if you want to play that game. Quite frankly, you showed me exactly what I sensed from you in earlier exchanges in your last post: divisive, haughty and proud. Didn't answer your question? Hardly! What I did was answer it in a way your closed minded theological box wouldn't allow you to fathom. But hey, just call someone with an opposing view Satanically deceived and, valla, you win!

In closing, if a board moderator wants to enthusiastically associate himself with Mikethom's above post, then this is not a forum I wish to be a part of any longer. I've tried to deal with the issues brought up in this thread with a light touch, but it seems the other side here has not placed any such limits on themselves. I could go the attack route if I so choose to here as well and do quite well in the process, but out of respect to those who keep this board running, I'm not getting in the mud like that.


Well.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

My whole point was that any understanding of Matt 24 requires at least some "blend" of spiritualized symbolic language with whatever degree of actual literalism the interpreter believes gives the correct true understanding.

Once you are in that world there is a very high certainty of dispute and historically that has been the case. Amillennialists feel no more or less threatened by by Matt 24 then Pre-Millennialist feel their argument is undermined by Romans 9. The camps entrench.


That is why I have repeatedly said in this thread that I do not hold to the position that the details of Eschatology are for me a line of Christian fellowship but an area of liberty.

What MikeT said that I agreed with was "in sum" that nothing better pleases Satan than for us to be distracted into fights which tear apart the body of Christ and consume our energies in internecine theological wars. That makes sense to me precisely because I do not hold "End Times" theology as a "core" or "fundamental" tenet of Faith. Those that do could obviously see their Christian duty as requiring a firm defense, a hill they must die on. I respect that.

I was reluctant to engage this thread (and should have gone with that) precisely because I know how central particular Eschatological beliefs can be to the core of many Christians' faith and purpose. I know that many folks here whom I greatly admire and respect, especially for their obvious desire to be God's people, (and that VERY much includes ALL the posters on this thread) hold to Pre-millennialist teachings and could easily see any questioning of that tenet as a fundamental assault on Faith generally, or them specifically. I did not want that, but sadly I have failed to prevent it.

The reason I foolishly threw caution to the wind was to make known that there are other positions that a conservative, Bible believing, traditional Christian can take. Everyone who supports Israel need not be a Pre-Millennialist, and everyone who supports without being a Pre-Millennialist need not be a secularist or pragmatic. I am neither a Pragmatist, a Secularist, nor a Pre-Millennialist, yet I support Israel. In the course of this thread I've been associated with modernists, theological liberalism, political liberalism, and "ignoring" scripture, because I am not persuaded that Christ's certain return in Judgement (which I fully believe) will be accompanied by a restoration of a physical Israel and a 1,000 year reign on earth.

That gets the dander up. But I am old enough to have seen it coming and to have stepped aside. As a father of two nearly grown boys I am well aware of the truth of how many games go from fun, to roughhouse, to hospital; "how will we know when to stop unless somebody gets hurt?"

In sum: I do not believe Pre-Millennialists are Satanic (though wasn't his brother Satan :wink: ) I do believe Satan (like the Press) always wants conflict and dispute to be the center of our lives rather than reconcilliation and Grace. They (Satan and the Press) prefer the theology (and politics) of left and right, rather than up and down. So here's to vertical.

I apologize for any remarks that were less than vertical.

Now...on to something we can talk about as a subject for polite company...politics!

_________________
"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes



Post by Southern Doc Liked by: HuckyinKentucky
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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:12 pm 
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mikethom1 wrote:
When I provided that the information on the Greek in Luke 17:20-21, I was not relying on a concordance. I was reading it from the Greek text of the New Testament. I studied classical Greek for three years in college and New Testament (Koine) Greek for another three years in seminary. In my years in the public ministry I have written several exegesis papers on selected sections of the Greek New Testament. In studying for my weekly sermons, I begin by going to the Greek original and translating it. So when I wrote above that the Greek word for “within” in that passage is entos, I was not expressing an opinion. It appears that in this case the concordance has misled you. If you still don’t believe me, find someone else who has studied New Testament Greek and ask him or her.


Sorry this has taken a while. In response to the above comment several days ago regarding the interpretation of Luke 17:21, I promised to ask my pastor for help on the meaning of the word translated "within" you. He has been so kind as to reply with the following thoughts on possible translation/meaning of that word. I did not ask him about eschatology, the rest of the chapter, or the other parts of the debate here.

Quote:
As to the issue in Lu 17:21 - you've correctly grasped the essential question. It's one of the more heavily-debated passages in Luke. How one translates or interprets the Greek word 'entos' is the question. It's important to remember the immediate question from the Pharisees - How can one identify the Kingdom, and how would it appear? Jesus' first answer is that is does not come with "observation," or with signs to be observed as part of a "powerful and glorious arrival" (Bock, p. 286). It will not be localized in the sense that they were anticipating. Rather, it was an internal, or personal, thing. The initial phase of the kingdom, instead, is 'in their midst,' as most of the commentaries I looked at prefer.

As you noted, the debate is over the term 'entos' and whether it should be translated "among you/in your midst" or "within you/inside you." While 'entos' usually means 'inside,' there are plenty of Greek scholars who argue that it can legitimately be translated 'among.' It should be clear that Jesus didn't mean 'inside' the Pharisees, because they were rejecting Him and thus could not conceivably be said to be part of the kingdom. If there was one place where the kingdom was not, it was in them. However, because Jesus was in their presence, it was already 'among' them. They don't need to look up in the sky for signs of the kingdom because it was already in their midst in its initial phase.

I could even accept the 'inside' interpretation in the sense of something like this: "The kingdom will not come in the manner of your expectations that it will be accompanied by great and wondrous signs; instead, it is present inside a person ('you' in a generic sense, not a personal sense with respect to the Pharisees questioning Him)."

The primary truth is not affected, in my judgment, by which interpretation/translation is chosen. The primary truth is that the kingdom majors on the heart and inner being of a person as opposed to a primarily political/military/apocalyptic appearance defined by location and outward trappings of traditional political kingdoms.

I'd be happy to copy a few pages of a couple of commentaries that discuss this fairly completely. I'm especially appreciative of Darrell Bock's IVP commentary on Luke.

Hope this is helpful. Let me know if there is anything else I can do.

- Dave


We did not have time to get into a discussion of the fulfillment of prophecies regarding Israel in the future other than to agree that there are many yet unfulfilled.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:21 pm 
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I think we may be done with theological questions here about eschatology, but I would like to keep us updated as to what is going on in Israel and the Middle East.

Most Huckabee supporters are like the Governor, supporters of a free and strong Israel with defensible borders.

This is the 44th anniversary of the Six Day War in Israel. Thought you might like to read what Joel Rosenberg has to say about the threats on Israel right now from her many surrounding enemies. The situation is very serious, with ramifications for our own survival as a nation, especially the nuclear bomb Iran is making.



Quote:
ISRAEL, PROPHECY AND THE "DAY OF THE LORD": UNDERSTANDING THE OLD TESTAMENT BOOK OF JOEL -- PART ONE

>> Watch all the Epicenter Conference messages online for free -- or pre-order the DVD package -- at http://www.epicenterconference.com

By Joel C. Rosenberg
(Washington, D.C., June 7, 2011) -- This week marks the 44th anniversary of the Six Day War, the historic reunification of Jerusalem under Jewish control, and the dramatic retaking of the Biblical heartland known as Judea and Samaria by the prophetically reborn Jewish State. It is a week of celebration for Israeli Jews, but a week of mourning and violent protests for Israel's Arab neighbors. As I write this, Iranian leaders says the End of Days has come and the Twelfth Imam will emerge from occultation very soon. They are calling for the annihilation of Israel, sending an Iranian submarine to the Red Sea, and a new report says Iran could build nuclear weapons in just two months. Meanwhile, violence is spiking on the Syrian-Israeli border and the Egyptians have just legalized the Muslim Brotherhood as a political party.

A growing number of Muslims, Jews and Christians believe we are living in the last days of human history as we have known it. Are they right? Are the tumultuous events and trends underway in the Middle East and around the world signs that the Messiah is coming to Earth soon to judge and to rule and reign from Jerusalem? What is the "Day of the Lord"? What are the "last days"? What does Bible prophecy teach about such things? And how should we live in light of such prophecies?

Answering these questions was the focus of the 2011 Epicenter Conference, which took place in Jerusalem on May 15-16. One Day One, a group of internationally renowned Bible teachers and I taught through the Old Testament "Book of Joel" verse by verse, chapter by chapter. We then had a panel discussion on lessons for Israel and the Church drawn from the Book of Joel. One Day Two, we had a series of panels where highly-regarded Israeli, Palestinian, American, Iranian and Indian pastors and Bible teachers explored the implications of these Bible prophecies for Israel and the Church in more depth in light of current events.

By God's grace and to our great encouragement, some 700 evangelical Christians -- including those from as far away as Uganda, Ghana, Germany, South Korea and South Africa -- attended the The Joshua Fund's annual conference in person. Since then, more than 31,500 people around the world have watched videos of the messages on-line at no charge at http://www.epicenterconference.com. Many have also pre-ordered a complete set of the messages on DVD so they can watch them with -- or give them to -- family members, friends, their small group Bible studies, home fellowship groups, or their whole church congregations.

I believe God wants all of Israel and all of the Church to turn our attention to the Book of Joel in the weeks and months ahead. There is a critically important message there that is on the Lord's heart and it is deeply relevant for our time. Over the next few days, I'm going to share with you my own personal study and message notes from the Book of Joel. I hope you will find them helpful as you study the writings of this important minor prophet and teach them to others.

Let's begin today with an overview. What follows are the notes I used to deliver the first message of the 2011 Epicenter Conference....

>> To read the rest of this column -- as well as the latest key headlines from Israel, Iran and the Middle East -- please go to our English blog http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/or the Hebrew blog (http://www.joelrosenberg.co.il). Thanks.


Rosenberg also has a ministry to the Palestinian and other people of the Middle East.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:40 am 
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I can only speak for myself and not for Mike. I haven’t been able to check the forum for several days and was sad to see how this discussion ended. Last weekend we had been talking about this thread, and I said to Mike that it is wonderful to be able to speak with those who care about these things and have a genuine civil dialogue based on Scripture. I was thankful that he was able to back up the points I was making with scripture taken from the original.

Again I only speak for myself. If I am certain that what I believe is true and I say so, I hope that it will not be taken as a sign that I am haughty or proud. I do not think that I am better than anyone because I have been led through my study to be confident that what I say is founded on the Word of God. If I am sure that I am right and that someone else is wrong—and I believe that it is important, I pray that those with whom I talk will be led through their further study of God’s word to a clear understanding of these vital spiritual matters. These things are so important as we journey to our heavenly home.

I would hope that none of what we have written “offends” anyone in the scriptural sense of leading someone to lose their faith.

We have lots of family challenges we are dealing with in our personal lives right now, and I feel we have said all that the Lord would have us say about this. I will keep coming back to HA, sometimes as a distraction from other things that are going on. I need some help in getting to know the presidential hopefuls! I certainly don’t feel sure about who I want to support yet.

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"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths." (Proverbs 3:5)



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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:14 am 
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Thanks Mary for your kind and open response. Maybe all of us said some things that were misconstrued. And it is always true that there are misunderstandings that spring merely from different backgrounds and ways of saying things. Often we probably agree on far more than we disagree, but the differences are what trip us up. I love a discussion of several viewpoints because it helps me frame my own beliefs and think what is and isn't. As long as we can keep out personal attack and seek to understand one another.

For example, I believe the essence of the Gospel is salvation. But I can see the Bible in various ways and not be wrong, I think. I see it as a love letter, as I have studied Song of Solomon with a group of teenage girls. It opens with the Creation account and God lovingly making earth (like the Bridegroom preparing a home for His Bride) for mankind to dwell upon. And it ends with Revelation and Jesus coming for His Bride. Also, each book of the Bible portrays Jesus Christ in some aspect or another. In Genesis, He's the Creator, Exodus the Law-giver, etc. The Bible is a book of Law; yet it is a book of Grace. It is Old; it is New, but salvation is always by the grace of God. And I might describe the Bible as Truth, in essence. Or revelation. It seems this is bigger than any of us can convey with our earthly minds and abilities. And therein we sometimes find disagreements, maybe not in details but in what is most important.

I found these verses today that seem to put everything under the Providence and Purpose of God. I invite people to look them up and ponder them for themselves:

Psalms 33:11
Isaiah 14:24
Acts 2:23
Ephesians 1:11-12


If I had to pick one overarching purpose for which we have been given the Bible, and the revelation of Christ, I would say it is for the glory of God.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:49 am 
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I want to get back to the purpose of this thread, to inform us of what is happening in the Middle East, and to help us support Israel. Most of us agree that Israel is our best and only real ally in the Middle East. Her existence is being threatened as never before, more even than when the Arab enemies amassed against this tiny nation in 1967.

Now, not only do her Arab neighbors call for Israel's destruction, but also our President has proposed borders that would further the vision of Hamas and Fatah, terrorist leaders who want to wipe her off the map. Israel is in grave danger, which means we and the free world are also. This administration's ignoring Iran's development of the nuclear bomb, aimed to destroy Israel and the USA is serious. For the goal of radical Islam is to force conversion to their religion and system of sharia law upon the whole world.

It is important we keep up with the news and learn more of what is happening that affects us all.

THE NEWS LAST WEEK
Last week many important things happened. Unfortunately, it is not front-page news, but back-door diplomacy. But we need to be informed.

Remember September. That will be momentous for the whole world, for our economy, security, and safety if the terrorists are successful in declaring Palestine a state at the opening of the United Nations session. If a Palestinian state with the borders President Obama proposes comes to pass, Jerusalem will become an international city, ruled by the United Nations, a divided capital. Israel will have no harbor to the south, no access to shipping and presence in the gulf region. (We lose that security, too.) It will have no other bordering countries but Palestine, Obama says. And the shrunken state will be only 8 miles wide in places. Imagine how the Israelis would become sitting ducks to terrorists destroying them! We must not let this happen.

(We are also concerned for those Palestinian Christians and Muslims who enjoy the wealth and freedom under the Israeli law, far more than they would under terrorist control.)


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:34 am 
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I want to post some headlines that we may not all have time to look up or notice.

Why is this important? Events of historic proportion are occurring rapidly in the Middle East--new alignments of power that could potentially have grave impact for the USA and the free world, as well as for Israel immediately.

In all this change, the very existence of Israel is threatened, as well as America’s.

The terrorists are being given almost free rein in the area by this administration.

Past allies, such as Egypt’s Mubarek, are being thrown overboard with, if not the direct aid, at least the encouragement of this President, who misidentifies these uprisings as an “Arab Spring” of democracy.

And what other country might we invade next (as our President did in the name of “humanitarian reasons”) like he did in Libya? This all increases instability for the whole Middle East area and promotes the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Already in Egypt, the party surviving these protests and disruptions and rising to power is the Muslim Brotherhood. (Gov. Huckabee predicted this back in February.) They have now brokered the “brotherhood” of past rivals—Hamas and Fatah—to overtake and overwhelm the West Bank and declare a much larger area (in fact two-thirds of Israel) as a Palestinian state. The political figure favored to win election in Egypt, whom we will now be given to deal with, is likely a Muslim Brotherhood candidate who is very anti-semitic.

Pity the Jews of the world, as well as the Coptic Christians of Egypt, who are now feeling the heavy hand of Muslim persecution. (Mubarek at least protected them.)

We need to pay close attention and contact our representatives to stand for Israel and against terrorism. And I still pray that we could someday have such a strong President as Mike Huckabee, who understands the dynamics of the Middle East and who would stand behind a valued ally. I do not know who can take his place. :-(



HEADLINES FOR THE WEEK:

Headline #1: Monday, June 14, 2011. Hamas, Fatah reach deal on makeup of unity government - Jerusalem Post
Hamas and Fatah have reached an agreement over the composition of a unity government, Azzam al-Ahmed, head of the Fatah negotiating team with Hamas, announced late on Tuesday.

Hamas, Fatah reach deal on makeup of unity government
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH
06/14/2011 23:07
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPoliti ... ?id=224992


Ramallah official refuses to confirm report Fayyad won’t serve in next gov't; Fatah fears PA leadership without him will lead West to suspend aid.


Hamas and Fatah have reached an agreement over the composition of a unity government, Azzam al-Ahmed, head of the Fatah negotiating team with Hamas, announced late on Tuesday.

The announcement came at the conclusion of another round of talks between Hamas and Fatah representatives in Cairo, who met to discuss the implementation of their Egyptian- brokered reconciliation agreement.

RELATED:
In reaction to Fayyad nod, Hamas reportedly taps Haniyeh
Abbas to Egypt:
'Convince Hamas to accept Fayyad as PM'

Ahmed said the new government would be announced in Cairo next week during a meeting between Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal.

He added that the two parties still had not agreed on who would be prime minister.

Ahmed would neither confirm nor deny a report on Al- Jazeera that claimed Fatah and Hamas had agreed that incumbent Prime Minister Salam Fayyad would be left out of the new government.

“We don’t want to talk about excluding anyone,” the Fatah official said. “But we agreed that there would be conformity on this issue. So far there no conformity on the issue of the prime minister.”

Asked about Hamas’s demand that the prime minister be from the Gaza Strip, Ahmed said: “We are searching for a Palestinian prime minister, and not a prime minister from South Africa or any other country. It’s not important if the prime minister is from this city or that.”

According to the Al-Jazeera report, Hamas and Fatah have in fact agreed on a prime minister, but have decided not name him for now. Fayyad would not be part of the unity government, the report said.

Earlier this week, the Fatah Central Committee voted to nominate Fayyad to continue as prime minister – a proposal that was immediately rejected by Hamas.

Ezzat Risheq, a senior Damascus-based Hamas official, said that during the Cairo discussions on Tuesday, his movement reiterated fierce opposition to the appointment of Fayyad as head of a unity government.

Fatah leaders expressed fear that the exclusion of Fayyad from the new government would prompt the US and EU donor countries to suspend financial aid to the Palestinians.

Sources in the Gaza Strip claimed that Muhammad Mustafa, economic adviser to Abbas, was a leading candidate to head the unity government, which would consist of independent technocrats. [Note: translate that—United Nations operatives. Want them in charge?]



~ Headline #2: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 we saw this headline of the invasion of Israel by so-called “protestors”:
UN says Syria allowed Naksa Day border crossings - Jerusalem Post

Syrian armed forces allowed Palestinian demonstrators to cross the Israel-Syrian border in the Golan Heights during Nakba and Naksa Day protests, a United Nations reported released on Wednesday said, AFP reported.

Report: UN says Syria allowed Naksa Day border crossings
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/15/2011 09:53

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=225059


Syrian armed forces allowed Palestinian demonstrators to cross the Israel-Syrian border in the Golan Heights during Nakba and Naksa Day protests, a United Nations report released on Wednesday said, AFP reported.

The report on the UN Disengagement Force (UNDOF), which monitors the ceasefire between Syria and Israel did not accuse Syrians of organizing the demonstrations, but said that Syrian armed forces were near the locations of the protests on May 15 and June 5. [Interesting. They did not stop them, either]


~ Headline # 3: June 15, 2011 – Jerusalem Post
US, EU officials in Israel work to stop Palestinian UN move - Jerusalem Post


PM: Palestinians won't compromise if all demands are met
By T. LAZAROFF, G. HOFFMAN AND H. LEILA KREIGER
06/15/2011 02:15


Netanyahu tells Jerzy Buzek 30 UN states should oppose Palestinian statehood bid; US, EU officials in Israel work to stop UN move.

If the Palestinians obtain all of their requests and the UN General Assembly recognizes a Palestinian state, it will be difficult to get the Palestinian leadership to accept necessary compromises in peace negotiations, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Tuesday night.

Netanyahu made the comments during a meeting with President of the European Parliament Jerzy Buzek in Jerusalem.

RELATED:
Berlusconi offers to host Mideast peace talks in Sicily
Israeli official says talks could resume if PA unity fails

The prime minister said 30, and perhaps even 50, UN member states should be convinced to oppose the recognition of a unilateral Palestinian state.

After the meeting, Buzek said that the EU is interested in restarting peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, and emphasized that such negotiations are important for Europe also because of the threat emanating from Iran.

Netanyahu warned that if Iran develops nuclear weapons, the world will change and in order for this scenario not to happen, Israel needs Europe's support.

Earlier Tuesday, American and European officials were in Israel in a strong push to jumpstart the stalled peace process and thereby prevent Palestinian unilateral statehood at the United Nations in September.

“We want to use the next weeks and the next months to prevent such a difficult situation in the United Nations. This is our goal and this is what we work for,” German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said.

He spoke at a joint press conference in Jerusalem with his counterpart Avidgor Lieberman, after meeting together. Earlier he met with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and he met with Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad in Ramallah. Westerwelle also held a phone conversation with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.

“We do not support unilateral steps. We think unilateral steps would be counter-productive so we ask everyone not to go on this path. We think unilateral steps are not helpful,” said Westerwelle.

He added that such moves do not improve regional security and imperil the peace process. “We want a two-state solution, but it has to come from direct negotiations,” he said.

Separately, acting US Middle East envoy David Hale and Dennis Ross, a top White House advisor on the Middle East arrived in Israel Tuesday, and according to the Israeli media already held talks with Israeli interlocutor Yitzhak Molcho and Netanyahu’s advisor Ron Dermer.

The US officials are looking to move the negotiating process forward. Hale will continue on to meet with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his aide, Saeb Erekat, later in the week.

The effort is aimed at “getting everyone back to the negotiating table,” according to a US State Department official.

The trip is seen as building on the meetings Hale held with Erekat and Molcho in Washington last week. The US is eager to jumpstart a stalled negotiating process as the Palestinians make plans to approach the UN for a unilateral declaration of statehood in September.

The Europeans have also looked to take more aggressive actions to give momentum to negotiations as an alternative to the Palestinians going to the UN. EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton recently sent US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other principles of the Quartet – the US, EU, UN and Russia – a letter calling for a strong international push for relaunching talks this summer.

But the State Department official said that the US is focused on Hale’s efforts to move the parties forward.

“We have our special representative and his job is to push the negotiations forward and that’s why he’s having his meetings with the parties in the region,” as well as in Washington, the official said.

An Israeli official said that “we are working closely with the Americans, as we are with others to see if it is possible to find a formula that will put September behind us.”

According to a source close to Netanyahu, the prime minister told Westerwelle that stopping the Hamas- Fatah unity deal was key to restarting negotiations.

But Palestinians have insisted that they will not talk with Israel unless it halts all construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, a demand that Netanyahu has refused to cede to.

He has similarly rejected a call from US President Barack Obama to start negotiations based on the pre-1967 lines with some land swaps.

At the request of the 40 opposition parliamentarians Netanyahu is expected to defend his policies in the Knesset Wednesday.
At Tuesday’s press conference with Westerwelle, Lieberman defended Netanyahu’s stance.

“The final borders must be the result of the negotiation process. It is unacceptable for us to agree to the [pre-] ’67 lines without any negotiation, without any talks,” he said.

Israel has many questions regarding the issue of Palestinian refugees and Palestinian recognition of Israel as the national homeland for the Jewish people, he said.

“Regarding the settlements I am not sure that in my understanding that the settlements are an obstacle to peace,” he said.

He added that peace agreements were signed with Egypt and Jordan despite settlement construction.

Israel demolished 25 settlements in 2005 and that act did not bring peace, Lieberman said.

JPost.com staff contributed to this report

~ Headline #4: June 15, 2011- Jerusalem Post
American and European officials were in Israel on Tuesday in a strong push to jump start the stalled peace process and thereby prevent Palestinian unilateral statehood at the United Nations in September.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=225059

US, EU officials in Israel work to stop Palestinian UN move
By T. LAZAROFF, G. HOFFMAN AND H. LEILA KREIGER
06/15/2011 01:27


German FM says "Unilateral steps are counterproductive, we ask everyone not to go on this path"; source close to Netanyahu: Stopping Hamas-Fatah unity deal key to resuming talks; PM set to defend policies in Knesset.
American and European officials were in Israel on Tuesday in a strong push to jumpstart the stalled peace process and thereby prevent Palestinian unilateral statehood at the United Nations in September.

“We want to use the next weeks and the next months to prevent such a difficult situation in the United Nations. This is our goal and this is what we work for,” German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said.

RELATED:
Berlusconi offers to host Mideast peace talks in Sicily
Israeli official says talks could resume if PA unity fails

He spoke at a joint press conference in Jerusalem with his counterpart Avidgor Lieberman, after meeting together. Earlier he met with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and he met with Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad in Ramallah. Westerwelle also held a phone conversation with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.

“We do not support unilateral steps. We think unilateral steps would be counter-productive so we ask everyone not to go on this path. We think unilateral steps are not helpful,” said Westerwelle.

He added that such moves do not improve regional security and imperil the peace process. “We want a two-state solution, but it has to come from direct negotiations,” he said.

Separately, acting US Middle East envoy David Hale and Dennis Ross, a top White House advisor on the Middle East arrived in Israel Tuesday, and according to the Israeli media already held talks with Israeli interlocutor Yitzhak Molcho and Netanyahu’s advisor Ron Dermer.

The US officials are looking to move the negotiating process forward. Hale will continue on to meet with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and his aide, Saeb Erekat, later in the week.

The effort is aimed at “getting everyone back to the negotiating table,” according to a US State Department official.

The trip is seen as building on the meetings Hale held with Erekat and Molcho in Washington last week. The US is eager to jumpstart a stalled negotiating process as the Palestinians make plans to approach the UN for a unilateral declaration of statehood in September.

The Europeans have also looked to take more aggressive actions to give momentum to negotiations as an alternative to the Palestinians going to the UN. EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton recently sent US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other principles of the Quartet – the US, EU, UN and Russia – a letter calling for a strong international push for relaunching talks this summer.

But the State Department official said that the US is focused on Hale’s efforts to move the parties forward.

“We have our special representative and his job is to push the negotiations forward and that’s why he’s having his meetings with the parties in the region,” as well as in Washington, the official said.

An Israeli official said that “we are working closely with the Americans, as we are with others to see if it is possible to find a formula that will put September behind us.”

According to a source close to Netanyahu, the prime minister told Westerwelle that stopping the Hamas- Fatah unity deal was key to restarting negotiations.

But Palestinians have insisted that they will not talk with Israel unless it halts all construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, a demand that Netanyahu has refused to cede to.

He has similarly rejected a call from US President Barack Obama to start negotiations based on the pre-1967 lines with some land swaps.

At the request of the 40 opposition parliamentarians Netanyahu is expected to defend his policies in the Knesset Wednesday.
At Tuesday’s press conference with Westerwelle, Lieberman defended Netanyahu’s stance.

“The final borders must be the result of the negotiation process. It is unacceptable for us to agree to the [pre-] ’67 lines without any negotiation, without any talks,” he said.

Israel has many questions regarding the issue of Palestinian refugees and Palestinian recognition of Israel as the national homeland for the Jewish people, he said.

“Regarding the settlements I am not sure that in my understanding that the settlements are an obstacle to peace,” he said.

~ Headline 5: from Reuters, June 15, 2011
US, EU officials in Israel work to stop Palestinian UN move
By REUTERS [/size]
06/15/2011 01:39


http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=225013

American and European officials were in Israel on Tuesday in a strong push to jumpstart the stalled peace process and thereby prevent Palestinian unilateral statehood at the United Nations in September.

“We want to use the next weeks and the next months to prevent such a difficult situation in the United Nations. This is our goal and this is what we work for,” German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said.

He spoke at a joint press conference in Jerusalem with his counterpart Avidgor Lieberman, after meeting together. Earlier he met with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and he met with Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad in Ramallah. Westerwelle also held a phone conversation with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.


He added that peace agreements were signed with Egypt and Jordan despite settlement construction.

Israel demolished 25 settlements in 2005 and that act did not bring peace, Lieberman said
.[My note: appeasement does not stop the terrorist’s demands!]

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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:20 pm 
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I almost (not quite) find this humorous. That Palestinian leaders cannot trust one another to such an extent that they may never get together on the issue of a state. It seems this is typical in the Arab world, according to the following article. The only unifying factor is their common hatred of Israel.


Quote:
Palestinians Busy Fighting Each Other: Not Ready For Statehood
http://www.thejerusalemconnection.us/bl ... lines.html
Palestinians “just can’t get along”

Posted on June 21, 2011 by admin
Posted in Palestinian Authority, U.S. Israel Relations
KHALED ABU TOAMEH — The Hudson Institute –


As the world focuses its attention on the Palestinian Authority’s plan to ask the United Nations in September to recognize a Palestinian state along the pre-1967 lines, the Palestinian political scene is in disarray as a result of power struggles, personal and political rivalries and divisions. [Note: I think their idea is to "declare," more than to "ask."]

Everyone seems to be against everyone in the Palestinian territories. Fatah against Fatah, Fatah against Hamas, Hamas in Gaza against Hamas in Syria, Mahmoud Abbas versus Mohammed Dahlan and many other senior Fatah figures, Hamas and some in Fatah against Salam Fayyad, Islamic Jihad versus everyone and everyone versus the Syrian-based Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command.

Ironically, it is their shared hostility toward Israel that keeps the rivalries and internecine fighting from erupting into a full-fledged civil war.

The ongoing power struggles and disputes in the Palestinian arena raise serious questions as to whether the Palestinians are ready for statehood.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who is spearheading the effort to acquire a Palestinian state through the UN, and not at the negotiating table with Israel, is facing increased opposition from within the Palestinian Authority and his ruling Fatah faction.

The main charge against Abbas is that he and a handful of his top aides are making crucial and historic decisions without consulting others.

At least five senior Palestinian Authority and Fatah officials have come out against Abbas’s statehood bid.

But there is no doubt that the biggest challenge to Abbas these days is coming not from Hamas, but from his own Fatah faction.

Abbas’s recent decision to expel Dahlan from Fatah is threatening to divide the faction into two separate parties. Dahlan is enormously popular among many Fatah cadres in the Gaza Strip, where there is great anger over Abbas’s decision.

Many Fatah leaders are now threatening to quit the faction in protest against the dismissal of Dahlan. Even those who are not known as Dahlan supporters have come out against the decision because of the way it was taken.

They point out that the removal of Dahlan was carried out illegally and without the approval of Fatah institutions. They also note that as a member of the Palestinian parliament, Dahlan enjoys parliamentary immunity – a fact that Abbas preferred to ignore when he decided to remove him.

Another Fatah leader who is now challenging Abbas is Marwan Barghouti, who has been in Israeli prison for the past nine years after being convicted of organizing armed attacks against Israelis. Barghouti’s wife this week published a letter she sent to Abbas in which she accused the Palestinian president and his top aides of turning their backs on her husband.

On the other hand, the Fatah-Hamas “reconciliation” accord, which was announced on May 4, seems to be going nowhere. The two rival parties were supposed to announce the establishment of a unity government this week. But the announcement was postponed indefinitely because of Hamas’s refusal to accept Salam Fayyad as prime minister of the new government. It also seems that not everyone in Fatah is happy about the idea of having Fayyad as prime minister.

Hamas, meanwhile, is also witnessing a power struggle between its leaders in the Gaza Strip and those sitting in Syria, especially in regard to the reconciliation pact with Fatah and the fate of Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, who has been held by Hamas for five years.

Two weeks ago, Palestinians were shocked when they learned that militiamen belonging to Ahmed Jibril’s Popular Front-General Command opened fire at a demonstration in a refugee camp in Syria, killing 14 people and wounding many others.

In the wake of all these disputes and power struggles, it is hard to see how Mahmoud Abbas would be able to proceed with his plan to ask the UN to recognize a Palestinian state in September. It is also impossible to move forward with the peace process while the Palestinians are busy fighting each other.



It seems strange to place one's hopes on the fact that your enemies can't seem to agree among themselves, but for Israel, unless things change in the Palestinian coalition or (terrorist) power, there looks like no further forward movement on a Palestinian state. President Obama now says that there must be "negotiations." It sounds next to impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:01 am 
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This has been quite an educational experience--trying to keep up with the weekly news on the subject I introduced in this thread! I was unfamiliar with Durbin I and II, let alone III...

Had any of you heard of Durban III? Evidently it is a United Nations Racism Summit. But instead of calling the nations that want to get rid of Jews and Israel "racist," the supporters or this summit are attacking Israel as the only nation they call racist.

Under pressure, President Obama has pulled out of the anti-Israeli summit. We need to keep insisting that he does not attempt to put his destructive pro-terrorist (Hamas and Fatah) plans in place. Please pray for all the residents in Israel, including Christians, Muslims, and Jews, that they may peacefully reside without attacks from enemies that want to disrupt and destroy their homes. The terrorists are enemies of all people.

As the article that follows says, we need to be vigilant and put the pressure on our President Obama. He is the first American President ever who seems more in the camp of those who are hostile toward Israel than he is supportive of our traditional ally.

In the Middle East there are but two democracies, Israel and Turkey, and only Israel is sympathetic with Western values. We need to keep this tiny nation strong and protect its control of ports in the Red Sea and access to the Suez Canal. We need to call our congressmen and women to remind them of the importance of protecting Israel and tell them to resist our own President's efforts to squeeze the nation into indefensible borders.


Quote:
White House Says No to Durban III But UN Racism Summit Still Has Too Many Supporters



By Anne Bayefsky

With President Obama’s anti-Israel hostility becoming an increasing liability for Democrats, the administration finally decided Wednesday to pull out of the U.N.’s upcoming Israel-bashing extravaganza known as “Durban III.” Believe it or not, the notorious U.N. world summit on racism is coming to New York City in September with the purpose of “commemorating” the ten-year anniversary of the racist “anti-racism” conference held in Durban, South Africa in 2001.

Mr. Obama's latest lead-from-behind foreign policy move comes seven months after Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government first declared, “we will not be part of this event, which commemorates an agenda that promotes racism rather than combats it.”[/b]

The decision appears to be a clear reaction to the negative political fallout surrounding Mr. Obama's recent veiled attempt to shove indefensible borders down Israel’s throat.


During Obama’s speech to the pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC on May 22, he specifically referred to his decision not to attend the “Durban II” or “Durban review conference,” which was held in Geneva in 2009. But he made no mention of U.S. participation in the 2011 Durban III event, though it would have been an ideal audience for such an announcement had he already reached a decision on it.

In 2009 President Obama decided -- just 36 hours before the meeting began -- that there was something wrong with a conference on xenophobia and intolerance headlined by Iranian President Ahmadinejad.


It was a costly delay, which saved the U.N. from even more embarrassment, as many other states would have acted in tandem with the United States and boycotted Durban II with sufficient planning.

Evidently, on May 22 the president still thought he could pull the same dawdling stunt again.

But with Democrats scrambling to recover from the president’s profound alienation of large numbers of voters deeply sympathetic to Israel, the June 1 announcement was made and dressed up as a response to a letter “from Democratic Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand.” The old letter from last December was actually signed by 9 Democrats, 8 Republicans, and 1 independent, and post-dated a boycott call of the racism summit made by Republican Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen in November.


The better-late-than-never decision is not as simple, however, as it seems.

First, the U.N. General Assembly is currently negotiating a resolution on the “modalities” of Durban III. In plain English, there has been a difficult and protracted debate behind-the-scenes about the organization of the summit. The European Union, in particular, is looking for procedural dodges that will help it avoid the split that occurred during Durban II, when some EU states boycotted and others did not. Unfortunately for EU pencil pushers, there is no escaping that the substance of the meeting is irrevocably poisoned.

By virtue of a 2010 General Assembly resolution, the purpose of Durban III is to celebrate a world conference that reveled in anti-Semitism and to adopt a final declaration that reaffirms the original Durban Declaration. That’s the Declaration supposedly to combat racism, xenophobia and related intolerance but that somehow manages to charge just one of the 192 UN members with racism, namely, Israel.

The Obama administration has given no indication that it will encourage EU allies to break ranks and boycott Durban III, by insisting on a vote on this resolution and voting against.


And, as if this were not enough (!) that glorious United Nations on our New York shores was willing to take its antisemitism and meddling even further...

Quote:
Second, the U.N. Human Rights Council is poised to hold an event in Geneva on June 15 also “in the context of the tenth anniversary of the Durban Declaration.” With the Obama administration on the Council it appears set to attend events over there hoping nobody will notice over here.

But the Council and U.N. High Commissioner Navi Pillay – a native of Durban and chief champion of the Durban Declaration – have planned a three-hour panel discussion featuring seven carefully selected speakers. They include, for instance, extremist Mireille Fanon-Mendes. As recently as April 25 of this year, Fanon-Mendes told the “Electronic Intifada” that Israel was an apartheid state and she supported the first and second Palestinian intifadas as well as blockade-running flotillas and the international prosecution of Israelis as war criminals.

The Durban illness runs deep. The U.N. human rights system, led by the High Commissioner and Human Rights Council, has perverted the fight against racism into a fight against the Jewish state, a democratic freedom-loving home to more than a million Arabs and a bulwark against the ravages of anti-Semitism for all Jews.

Remember that the streets of Durban pulsated with signs reading, “for the liberation of Quds, machine guns based on FAITH and ISLAM must be used” and “the martyr’s blood irrigates the tree of revolution in Palestine,” while the gross intolerance inside the Durban meeting halls ended on September 8, 2001. Given the inextricable connection between hate and violence, shunning Durban III on September 22 in New York City just days after the tenth anniversary of 9/11 was a no-brainer.

Now comes the hard part. U.N. demonization of Israel serves to justify Palestinian rejection of negotiations and coexistence, which in turn fuels U.N. support of a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood.
The cycle will only be broken if Palestinians and their U.N. enablers are made to face real consequences for attempting to reap the rewards of hatemongering.

[This article originally appeared on FoxNews.com]

Anne Bayefsky is a Member of JINSA’s Board of Advisors and is a Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute and director of the Touro Institute on Human Rights and the Holocaust.


This is another reason why Governor Huckabee and many others wonder why we continue to support and fund 40% of the costs of the United Nations, an obviously anti-American and anti-Israeli body.

Anyone else wonder why we don't just give this hate-mongering moniker of peace--the wrongly, idealistically named United Nations--the boot, to get them off our shores?


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:11 am 
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Yes, folks, I do admit to a love and fascination with the people and land of Israel. How I would love to visit this land! No other nation is like it in origin (God-ordained for the lineage of Messiah) or in history of suffering.

A famous author over a hundred years ago felt the same fascination. Samuel Clemons of Mark Twain fame wrote a book, called Innocents Abroad, to describe the struggles of this seemingly abandoned people in their barren land of promise.

If we are to believe that this desolate land was any sort of desirable spot of real estate that the "Palestinians" possessed in any great number in the early twentieth century, we are mistaken. It was an area despised by the world at the time of the rebirth of the current state of Israel. A rocky and barren prison home where the Jews that survived the Holocaust could be housed. Yet, visiting the state of Israel today, it is hard to believe how the Jewish people have made the "desert bloom," with trees and farms, businesses, and prosperity that is now envied (and wanted) by the Arab nations. Why are the children of Jacob still so despised by the children of Esau--who still believe that their birthright was stolen, even though God's promise of the land was to the sons of brother Jacob (Israel)? This remains an everlasting conflict, and an enigma!

This article is from Friends of Israel:
Quote:


http://www.foi.org/israeltheinscrutableenigma

Israel: The Inscrutable Enigma

November/December 2009 Editorial

by Elwood McQuaid

Mark Twain, the famous American author, humorist, narrator, and social observer, had great personal problems with the religionists of his day and many other aspects of the world he occupied in the 1800s.

He was, however, fascinated by the Jewish people. To him, they were both an enigma and an inspiration. His description, in his book Innocents Abroad, of the Holy Land’s topography chronicled the land’s barrenness and apparent hopelessness and was a moving land mark in the Jewish people’s progression across the face of history and the Middle East.

His observations of the area as a sterile wasteland fit only for the habitation of “owls and jackals” had an almost mystic quality, much like the explanation once given of the melancholy strains of Jewish, minor-key music. “It’s as though, in the music of the Jewish people, that just beneath the pathos there is a joyful ebullience about to burst through.” This refrain seems reflected in the words of Samuel Clemens when he wrote “Concerning the Jews” for Harper’s Magazine in 1898:

“If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one per cent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star-dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

“He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.

“The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

The secret of the Jewish people’s immortality is no secret. It’s written on every page of God’s eternal Word. Furthermore, it is confirmed on every successive Jewish march through history from the clouds of adversity. And when one views their situation in these troubled times, beleaguered by enemies and betrayed by friends, there is the vision of undeniable expectation. Israel is a nation in waiting, hanging on until the trumpet sounds to herald the entrance of a deliverer who will lead it into the light and bring an end to the anguish of the ages.

One of the great ironies is that the more there appears to be reason for depression, the more obvious it is that a great change is on the horizon. It is as though an inevitable, climactic consummation were on the way—an Armageddon-proportioned experience.

Biblically, the waiting will end with the promised Second Advent of the Son of Man, Messiah Jesus, in the day when “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26).

In a way, the expectation of those awaiting His first appearance was comparable to what goes on today. For the Jewish people and their little nation then, things could not have been much worse. Pagan Rome was master of the world, and its grip tightened inexorably with every passing day. But there was the promise; the virgin shall conceive . . . the Savior shall arrive. And as rugged shepherds on the hills of Bethlehem could attest, He did arrive and changed the world. Our promise, as sure as theirs, will come—and come soon, we are certain.

Too bad so many brilliant and gifted men like Samuel Clemens still discern the shadow and ask the question, “What is the secret of his immortality?” Yet they never grasp the reality.


-- -- --


As stated on their website, the "Friends of Israel was founded in 1938 by Christian leaders in response to the desperate needs of Jewish people afflicted by the raging torrents of Nazi hate. Through this Christian ministry, funds were raised and aid was distributed to Jewish refugees in their darkest hours of need. Today, The Friends of Israel is an important evangelical Christian voice in opposing anti-Semitism, explaining the unique, biblical role of Israel in God’s plan and encouraging Christians to pray for Israel and support her biblical, historical, and moral rights to live within secure borders."

I realize not all who read this will agree with the eschatological hopes for this nation as promised in the Bible. But I do think that we can appreciate the need to protect the Jews in this land, which was the birthplace also of Christianity. We can stand by this most important ally of America in the Middle East.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Israel
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Sad news! The Middle East situation is becoming increasingly unsettled. And I think we can credit President Obama for the mess the Middle East is in. Obama's snubbing of Israeli leader Netanyahu in favor of the PLO and the Muslim Brotherhood has set on fire hopes of these terrorist groups to capitalize on and foment more unrest among Palestinians.

Obama’s speech declaring that Israel shall not have any borders but with a new nation of Palestine (surrounding and squeezing them into indefensible borders) has irresponsibly halted any desire for serious and fair negotiations and has emboldened the Palestinian terrorists.

I am saddened to report that the much-feared “unilateral” declaration of a Palestinian state being formed under the leadership of terrorist organizations, Hamas and Al Fatah, is creeping nearer and nearer.

And we will not have to wait until September to hear more of the debate that is being very seriously considered. Those who would destroy Israel and take away her ability to defend herself are gaining more attention and boldness.

The powerful group of nations and entities commonly known as “the Quartet”--which includes the European Economic Community, the United Nations, the United States, and Russia--have scheduled July 11th to debate this proposed seizure of Israeli land by Palestinian and Muslim Brotherhood forces.

Then, the United Nations Security Council--which consists of 15 member nations among which only 5 have veto authority (USA, Great Britain, France, China, and Russia) will convene on July 26th for an open “debate” over whether they will seize the greater part of Israel’s land, as well as dividing Jerusalem.

According to the newspaper, Haaretz, “The Arab League has said it would request UN membership for a Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital, at the UN General Assembly in September...The Quartet of Middle East peace negotiators -- the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations -- are expected to meet on July 11th. The meeting, expected to take place in Washington, will come amid a U.S. push to revive peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians." (Haaretz-July 7, 1011)

All of this attention to the Palestinians, who are only being used for the purpose of terrorists, does not bode well for peace in the Middle East. Unless the United States is able to force negotiations and veto the UN Security Council vote, it appears likely that the Palestinian and Muslim Brotherhood leaders will declare unilaterally a state called Palestine.

If this happens, Israel cannot accept its own demise and must react. With the taking of over half its land and half of its capital city of Jerusalem for a Muslim capital there is no way they can sit still. Already, Israel is taking extreme measures to bolster its security and defense, knowing it will be attacked soon. If the Palestinians attempt to take over the Jewish settlements and land, the Israelis must declare war to survive. They will choose to ignore any vote of the United Nations that attempts to divide their land.

Shockingly, now, it is a United States President--Barack Hussein Obama--who refuses to promise to veto the Palestinian takeover! Who could imagine this day might come? Palestinian President Abbas said last week on Lebanese TV, that, "President Obama says he wants to see an independent Palestinian state by September." Such dangerous and irresponsible words by our President give Abbas and the PLO leaders encouragement to seize the moment, attempting to take East Jerusalem. They, too, believe America will not come to the aid of her traditional ally, Israel. Will the American people stand by while their President refuses to protect Israel? I hope not.

Please keep in prayer the decisions in the days ahead of our Congress and our President, that they may do everything they can to avoid war and to prevent the taking of Israeli land and security by force.

Also, I urge you to call or write your U.S. Congressman or woman, asking them to co-sponsor and support House Resolutions 297 and 271, which will assure Israel’s right to defend her borders. Reject Obama’s call to return Israel to the indefensible 1967 borders.

Resolution H.R 297 was introduced by Pro-Israel Congressman Steve Chabot, chairman of the Subcommittee for mid-East relations, to say that: “the United States should withhold contributions to the regularly assessed biennial budget of the United Nations … if the General Assembly adopts a resolution in favor of recognizing a state of Palestine outside of or prior to a final status agreement negotiated between, and acceptable to, the State of Israel and the Palestinians." America supplies 22 percent of the operating budget of the United Nations. Withholding these funds would make the nations think twice before allowing the terrorist leaders of Palestine to take Israel’s land.

Will the United Nations really plan to take an illegal vote to unilaterally recognize Palestine in September? The Washington Times confirms: “A unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood would be an illegal act that would violate the letter and the spirit of U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973). Those binding resolutions called for a negotiated settlement of the dispute with Israel with 'secure and recognized boundaries.'"


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