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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Another socialist boundary crossed - parents must now have govt approval for their parenting methods...
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Spanking Hits Bottom Line In Parenting Debate

6/22/2011 | Email Marybeth Hicks

For years, I have arduously avoided the one topic that most certainly will incite a reader riot. However, I find I can stay silent no longer.
The issue? Spanking.

As hard as I am trying to fulfill a promise made to myself many years ago while sitting in front of a blank computer screen fighting writer’s block (“I don’t care if I have to type pages of the phone book, I will never, ever, ever write about spanking”), the issue has been put anew into the public debate, and I simply can’t stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away.

I’m reticent, because in nearly 22 years as a mother, I’ve concluded that no topic in the realm of parenting elicits a more vehement response from opponents and proponents. This is one issue about which there is no middle of the road.

If you are against spanking, you’re likely to be in the “spanking promotes violence in society” camp. You may have painful memories of being spanked as a child that inform your opinion. Or perhaps having never been spanked yourself, you are certain it is always unnecessary.

If you oppose spanking, you’re typically an advocate for “timeouts” and other disciplinary tactics to manage unacceptable behavior in children. You’re confident kids will grow out of their childish ways in time, and anyway, you just can’t bring yourself to do it.

You make a number of good points.

If you support spanking as a disciplinary tool, you’re likely to be on the “a little smack on the bottom never hurt anyone and may keep a kid from running into the street” team. Your memories of being spanked as a child are vague, or at least not disturbing, and you certainly wouldn’t call a swat on the rear “child abuse” or “violence” or even “hitting.”

If you think spanking can be OK, that opinion might reflect a general sense that it’s the job of parents to teach children how to behave appropriately in given situations, rather than wait for kids to decide to do this on their own, and you want kids who don’t just cooperate, but who also obey.

Your points would be well taken, too.

In fact, the spanking debate reflects the wide range of tactics parents use in the course of raising their children. Ultimately, spanking is a profoundly personal decision about how best to parent one’s own children, and thus, the reason I’ve distanced myself from the discussion.

Until now.

Last week in Corpus Christi, Texas, Judge Jose Longoria sentenced Rosalina Gonzales to five years of felony probation for spanking her 2-year-old child. (Red marks on the child’s backside were noted by the paternal grandmother and reported to a doctor.)

I don’t know the full story about Ms. Gonzales‘ parenting struggles. News reports say she does not have custody of the child she spanked and two other children, and is working with the state to regain custody. The judge also ordered her to take a parenting class, so perhaps she is an unskilled mother.

What bothers me, and should bother all parents, is what Judge Longoria said when he sentenced Ms. Gonzales: “You don’t spank children today. In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don’t spank children.”

To be clear, corporal punishment of one’s own children is not a crime in Texas. It is a crime to use unnecessary force or to physically endanger a child, and it always is considered abuse to physically “discipline” an infant. But corporal punishment in the form of a spanking is not against the law.

Yet.

Soon enough, the government should produce a parenting book so we know what will and will not be permissible in our homes. Is Judge Longoria a fan of grounding teens who stay out too late? Do “we do that” anymore? Are we allowed to closely monitor our kids’ activities via their cell phones or Facebook pages, or is that a violation of their privacy? Better check with the judge.

When a judge - or the government he represents - starts defining best practices in child-rearing, our nation is headed in a direction we do not want to go.

Debate spanking all you want, but let’s hope parents on both sides of that debate agree it is theirs to decide.

http://townhall.com/columnists/marybeth ... page/full/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 pm 
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:lol: What is it recently with judges in our state making the most ridiculous rulings? They're makin' us look bad.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:47 pm 
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In my home country, Sweden, spanking is illegal and has been so since 1979 - we were the first country in the world to ban corporal punishment.

The opposition to corporal punishment is huge; there is no political debate going on, every member of the parliament agrees that it should be illegal. In the last poll taken, 94 % supported the ban, 1 % were against it and the rest unsure.

I have seen the subject discussed at some Swedish parenting forums, but it's not really a discussion since everyone agrees ;) All they really do in those threads is complaining about those crazy American parents who still spank their kids :P

One of the reason why the subject is so taboo is because spanking is seen not as a violent crime, but as a sexual crime. Yes, Swedish people are convinced the reason why spanking occurs is because parents get some kind of sexual satisfaction from it - it's a form of pedophilia in other words. So to defend spanking is the same thing as defending child sexual abuse.

Personally, I believe pretty much nothing that is written in Proverbs is to be taken literally. They are proverbs after all, remember. For those of you who take it literally I'd like to ask; would it be a sin to hit a child with something else than a rod? Rods easily leave marks, and that would be illegal in most states I think. It also says "He who spareth the rod..." etc. Does this mean the mother is not entitled to give out corporal punishment? Since she is a "she", you know. Whatever the case may be for corporal punishment, it certainly can't be based on Proverbs. It can be proven scientifically that some (the % varies depending on who you ask) kids do not respond well to corporal punishment, so if Proverbs is to be taken literally, then I guess the Bible has been proven wrong and is no longer trustworthy. Also, there are plenty of kids who have been "spared the rod" and yet not been "spoiled", so that seems to disprove the whole thing. As you may have already figured out, I was never spanked as a child (though my parents threatened with it a couple of times when they were furious over something). I'm not particularly spoiled I'd say :).

There is another problem with motivating spanking with the bible, and it is that the child will grow up and associate God with pain and punishment, while in fact he or she should associate God with forgiveness and salvation. Remember, your intentions doesn't matter much. A lot of parents only talk about God when they are punishing their kids ("I am spanking you because the Lord commands me to"), but not when they are rewarding them ("I am allowing you to eat ice cream because the Bible tells me to be generous" or something like that). It's as if parents need to justify themselves with God when they spank their kids because they really feel bad about it, but for some reason don't find it necessary to remind kids of where all the gifts and happy experiences they get really come from.

That being said, I believe the anti-spanking activists are exaggerating. We can't walk away from the fact that after Sweden banned spanking, youth violence increased by 500 %. I know plenty of kids from my high school who certainly deserved a good ol' fashioned caning. Also, banning corporal punishment means parents have to be afraid to do things that are actually protecting kids - such as grab their arm and pull them back if they are about to walk into the middle of the street. The line is very blurry. Also teachers, who are not allowed to use corporal punishment either, cannot defend students against bullying since they aren't allowed to for example drag away a bully from his victim (one teacher did this and lost his job). Then we have the problem of proving that corporal punishment has happened; since it typically happens in the home, there are rarely any witnesses. A law is pointless if it cannot be enforced.

I don't believe that Sweden should legalize corporal punishment since frankly I'm not sure if Swedish parents can handle it. They haven't been spanked themselves as kids and therefore have no "natural" guidelines for when or how much to spank. Most people just use the same standards their parents had, Swedish parents won't be able to do that. Plus I'm worried about immigrant families and how for example muslim fathers would use it against their daughters (should a parent be allowed to spank a child who wants to convert to christianity?). God-fearing parents may be able to use it properly, but I'm a bit sceptical of the average Swede's competence.

Finally, I don't believe corporal punishment should involve any kind of humiliation (that is, no undressing - in particular not if kids have reached puberty). Humiliation is an unpredictable thing that can do strange things to the human mind, things it wasn't intended to do. It may just make the kids more humble and careful, or it could turn them bitter and vengeful. You never know. Don't play with the fire.

Sorry the post is so long, just wanted to give you a piece of my mind :) Any comments/questions are welcome

/John


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:46 am 
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Wendero wrote:
In my home country, Sweden, spanking is illegal and has been so since 1979 - we were the first country in the world to ban corporal punishment.

The opposition to corporal punishment is huge; there is no political debate going on, every member of the parliament agrees that it should be illegal. In the last poll taken, 94 % supported the ban, 1 % were against it and the rest unsure.

I have seen the subject discussed at some Swedish parenting forums, but it's not really a discussion since everyone agrees ;) All they really do in those threads is complaining about those crazy American parents who still spank their kids :P

One of the reason why the subject is so taboo is because spanking is seen not as a violent crime, but as a sexual crime. Yes, Swedish people are convinced the reason why spanking occurs is because parents get some kind of sexual satisfaction from it - it's a form of pedophilia in other words. So to defend spanking is the same thing as defending child sexual abuse.


Are they nuts? I still remember the very first time I spanked one of my children - and it broke my heart!!! He was about two years old and had turned the gas on the kitchen stove and it didn't ignite the burner. I was nursing his younger brother and didn't realize he was playing with the stove until I smelled the gas. I had slapped his hand numerous times for playing with those knobs over the preceding months without getting the message across. Gas turned on that high (or a lighted burner) could be a matter of life and death. I spanked his little bottom and left a few light bruises. I don't know which of us was crying more. That was the day I fully understood what Mom and Dad meant when they said, "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you."

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Personally, I believe pretty much nothing that is written in Proverbs is to be taken literally. They are proverbs after all, remember.


Are you confusing "proverbs" with "parables"? The word "proverb" means:
1. A short sentence often repeated, expressing a well known truth or common fact, ascertained by experience or observation; a maxim of wisdom.

"Maxim" means: 1. An established principle or proposition; a principle generally received or admitted as true. It is nearly the same in popular usage, as axiom in philosophy and mathematics.

Note: Definitions are from the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language. http://1828.mshaffer.com/

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There is another problem with motivating spanking with the bible, and it is that the child will grow up and associate God with pain and punishment, while in fact he or she should associate God with forgiveness and salvation. Remember, your intentions doesn't matter much.


Many people don't realize that God is not only a God of love and forgiveness - He is also a just God. Many of His promises are conditional - if you do right you get blessed and if you do wrong you get punished. Parents (especially fathers) are the closest earthly thing there is to God. We are supposed to teach our children about love and forgiveness - but also about consequences of both right and wrong behavior. If we fail to teach our children about these facts of life - they often have trouble understanding God. So, our "intentions" DO matter.

I believe there is a HUGE difference between beating a child according to Scripture (we think of as spanking) and beating a child out of anger (child abuse). IMHO a parent should (as calmly as possible) explain what the child did to deserve the punishment being administered - whether it be spanking, time out, grounding, standing in a corner, or whatever. Different offenses could warrant different punishments. Examples: 1. Slapping a hand of a toddler and saying, "No!" when they're reaching for something breakable might be enough. 2. If an older child stays out past curfew; grounding them might help them realize that a few minutes more with friends one time is going to cost them a lot more minutes than they got by staying longer than they should have.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Wendero wrote:

One of the reason why the subject is so taboo is because spanking is seen not as a violent crime, but as a sexual crime. Yes, Swedish people are convinced the reason why spanking occurs is because parents get some kind of sexual satisfaction from it - it's a form of pedophilia in other words. So to defend spanking is the same thing as defending child sexual abuse.
/John


I think this says more about the Swedish mind being in the gutter (or in Freud's wasteland, if there's any difference) than anything else.

The thought that there might be some kind of latent sexuality in spanking as corporal punishment never entered my head until you mentioned it here. Just sayin.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
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All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
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Your will is law in that small commonweal…
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
Wendero wrote:

One of the reason why the subject is so taboo is because spanking is seen not as a violent crime, but as a sexual crime. Yes, Swedish people are convinced the reason why spanking occurs is because parents get some kind of sexual satisfaction from it - it's a form of pedophilia in other words. So to defend spanking is the same thing as defending child sexual abuse.
/John


I think this says more about the Swedish mind being in the gutter (or in Freud's wasteland, if there's any difference) than anything else.

The thought that there might be some kind of latent sexuality in spanking as corporal punishment never entered my head until you mentioned it here. Just sayin.

There is a deviant form of S&M style sex with spanking, but there is also one involving defecation. So do we ban defecating, too?
(Miserere, I envy you - wish I didn't know these things!)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:27 pm 
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QuoVadisAnima wrote:
Miserere wrote:
Wendero wrote:

One of the reason why the subject is so taboo is because spanking is seen not as a violent crime, but as a sexual crime. Yes, Swedish people are convinced the reason why spanking occurs is because parents get some kind of sexual satisfaction from it - it's a form of pedophilia in other words. So to defend spanking is the same thing as defending child sexual abuse.
/John


I think this says more about the Swedish mind being in the gutter (or in Freud's wasteland, if there's any difference) than anything else.

The thought that there might be some kind of latent sexuality in spanking as corporal punishment never entered my head until you mentioned it here. Just sayin.

There is a deviant form of S&M style sex with spanking, but there is also one involving defecation. So do we ban defecating, too?
(Miserere, I envy you - wish I didn't know these things!)


:floor
I think somewhere in the recesses of my mind I had that fact about s&m spanking tucked away. I guess I just never connected the dots between that kind of spanking and the spanking of an errant child.

Anyway, why draw the line at spanking? Why not ban time out or yelling? Or save yourself some time and ban "bad parenting" and kids can take their folks to court should they want to and hope the judge shares their standards.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Sometimes a spanking can save a life, I believe.

One of our daughters was particularly strong-willed. At three years old, she loved to climb over the fence around our yard, but it was very dangerous when my husband, a farmer, was chopping ensilage for cattle feed. The big trucks would barrel past the yard every few minutes, and I was afraid she would get into the road. I remember one day it was a battle royal. About every ten minutes she would try to defy me and get over the fence. Because it is difficult to reason with a three-year old, I found the only effective way was a spanking on the rumpus. It took three spankings that day, but she finally learned that Mama was to be obeyed. And it just may have spared her life, not only that day but in the days to come. She never climbed the fence again.

Spankings can be administered safely, meant to sting and not to harm. Parents need to do the spanking without anger, force, or a big stick. It should cause sorrow in the parent to have to administer punishment or discipline. And it will then bring sorrow to the child for disappointing the parent.

My husband and I found with our four daughters that an occasional spanking was an amazing way to clear the air. Disrespect must not be tolerated, and the child knows when he or she is getting away with too much. They are uncomfortable, too, if they feel that Mom and Dad have no control over them. Some of our best times of parental closeness came after the spanking, when we would hug the child and tell her we loved her too much to let her get out of control or be disobedient and disrespectful. A child feels very insecure without such boundaries; being disrespectful and having no adult care enough to stop his or her misbehavior leaves them at the mercy of their own immature devices.

We are not talking about abusive beatings, angry tirades, or anything that takes advantage of a child's immaturity or weakness. That is abuse, not discipline. And the spankings will usually be required very infrequently. Yet, the parent usually knows when that moment arrives, when nothing else but a spanking will work to straighten out a young and rebellious child. The goal is to bring up the child "in the way he should go," so later he will follow the path of obedience to God. None of our daughters liked the spanking at the time, but they are thankful now that we cared enough to keep them "in line." And we did it early enough that a spirit of rebellion had not been able to grow that would make adolescence difficult. We enjoyed the teen years very much.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Wendero wrote:
Personally, I believe pretty much nothing that is written in Proverbs is to be taken literally. They are proverbs after all, remember. For those of you who take it literally I'd like to ask; would it be a sin to hit a child with something else than a rod? Rods easily leave marks, and that would be illegal in most states I think. It also says "He who spareth the rod..." etc. Does this mean the mother is not entitled to give out corporal punishment? Since she is a "she", you know. Whatever the case may be for corporal punishment, it certainly can't be based on Proverbs. It can be proven scientifically that some (the % varies depending on who you ask) kids do not respond well to corporal punishment, so if Proverbs is to be taken literally, then I guess the Bible has been proven wrong and is no longer trustworthy. Also, there are plenty of kids who have been "spared the rod" and yet not been "spoiled", so that seems to disprove the whole thing. As you may have already figured out, I was never spanked as a child (though my parents threatened with it a couple of times when they were furious over something). I'm not particularly spoiled I'd say :).
/John

So glad to see you are here and thank you for the enlightening information. I agree. For some reason, despite the dramatic breakdown of society around us, people won't admit that God was right and that his advice still is, and always will be, true.

There is a similarity between abusive parents who hurt their children and permissive parents who hurt their children by not properly disciplining them. Both groups have rejected God's principles and are handicapping their children's start in life.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:13 pm 
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A lot of parents only talk about God when they are punishing their kids ("I am spanking you because the Lord commands me to"), but not when they are rewarding them ("I am allowing you to eat ice cream because the Bible tells me to be generous" or something like that).

I don't comment much, but this in particular got my attention. As someone who was spanked (rarely, I was a good kid ;)), someone who knows lots of people who (were) spanked, and someone who has no problem spanking his own daughter, this is just silly. I have never heard anyone say, "I'm spanking you because God says so." What we do say is, "I'm spanking you because I love you," and then go on--after the deed--to explain it to them. You're a smart enough guy to know an unfair generalization when you see one. I'm pointing one out to you, and if that is the perception that Swedes have, then those of you who do know better ought to help correct it.

Beyond that, as to the topic at hand, Huckabee points out rightly that the first form of gov't we meet is the family. Young children can't be reasoned with. They don't have those kinds of capacities. Yes, they should obey because they love you and they know that you are trying to do what is best for them. But before they can learn that very reasonable lesson, they first must learn that they obey you because there are dread consequences if they don't. We spend a lot of time talking about the "fear of the LORD" being all about reverence and such . . . but there is a real aspect of fear in there, too. Our children should respect us. They should also fear us, insofar as they understand that we are real authority figures, and we do not wield that authority for nothing.

On the whole, I don't think spanking is necessary or even all that effective in older children or young teens. But when kids are young, especially under ten, nothing beats a good red rear-end! (pardon the pun)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Do any of the churches have an official stand on Corporal Punishment?

Most what I have seen is very vague.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:16 pm 
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jac3510, I'm glad you think it's silly - that means the practice hopefully isn't as common as I feared :) However, unfortunately, based on all too many personal stories from people who have grown up to hate christianity (honestly, I have hardly ever met a satanist who didn't grow up with christian parents) because they associate it with punishment and fear. It is from those stories that I know christian parents sometimes try to justify punishing their child by saying "This is God's will", just as a way of ending debate or something, but yet they never mention God in any positive context.

It is as if parents feel horrible about punishing their kids and therefore "blame" God for making them do it (or want the kids to blame God instead of being angry with their parents). But whenever they reward or do something fun with their kids, they take the credit themselves instead of reminding their children to be grateful to God for the gifts they get.


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