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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:05 am 
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Cronyism is a word that would describe Perry and how he governed Texas. Would be the same if he were in DC.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:33 am 
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World magazine had a good little article that summarized the strengths and weaknesses of the three candidates. One of the weaknesses they mentioned for Perry was croney capitalism. That means that it's not just us that noticed it. I can post the link to the article if anyone is interested.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:18 am 
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Yes, Perry is definitely a cronyist & a corporatist. He has been a better governor than Romney, but that's not saying much at all. The discomfort people feel regarding him is the instinctive recognition that he is the perfect used car salesman... :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:32 pm 
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I don't get the firm opposition I'm seeing to Perry. I've spent way more time reading opposition research than I have reading pro-Perry pieces, and I just don't see anything all that worrisome. For instance . . .

1. Crony capitalism - just because it has come up in this thread. This, to me, is one of those charges that is nearly impossible to prove to anybody except those who already dislike someone. It was leveled at Bush and is currently being leveled at Obama. It's built on conspiracy theories (X gave Y $Z and was suddenly awarded this position or that contract!) On the other hand, it should be rather obvious that people who believe in you are going to invest in you, and people with a lot of money are both the ones who invest a lot of money and also those who own the companies to do the jobs and/or have the experience that would actually qualify them for some appointment.

I'm not saying crony capitalism doesn't matter. I'm saying that, to me, it's a silly thing to get hyped up about, as are any conspiracy theories.

2. Gardasil vaccinations - conservatives are peeved because Perry mandated this HPV vaccination. I wouldn't have signed the EO, but it doesn't bother me for several reasons:

a. The EO was limited (as I understand it) to those children in public school. It's hypocritical, to me, to demand the government educate your children (or take advantage of government funded and run education) but then claim that your basic parental rights are being violated when that same government seeks to protect other children from STDs that lead to cancer.

b. The vaccination costed $360, a prohibitive pricetag for those with no money (and multiple children!). Insurance would not have covered it had it been listed as an optional vaccination, but they would have had the EO been put into effect. In other words, Perry's actions attempted to guarantee equal access to a potentially life saving vaccination to poor people.

c. The main alternative, especially in light of (b), was to set up a gov't fund that would help those who could not afford the vaccination but wanted it. But, of course, if he had done that, he would have been accused of increasing spending. So it's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.

Again, I would not have signed the EO, but I understand his rationale for doing so. And that rationale doesn't imply or entail a statist approach to healthcare (a la ObamaCare).

3. Major tax increases - This claim is about as true as the claim that Huckabee raised taxes. The implication is that Perry is a tax and spend, fiscally liberal Republican, but that's obviously just absurd when you look at his overall record. Yes, Perry did raise taxes, but those rate increases were revenue neutral and were essentially a change in the way Texans were taxed to pay for education. He cut property taxes by a third and raised taxes in other places to compensate. Only anti-tax Club for Growth type people would even think to hold this against him as some mark of fiscal liberalism.

4. Bilderberg and the TTC - I put these under the same heading because both are just conspiracy theorist (read: RP supporters') objections. Yes, Perry has attended Bilderberg meetings. So what? Unless you buy into the lunacy that they are a part of some secret shadow government that runs the world, who the heck cares about that?

The TTC argument has two components. The one that has gotten the bigger play is the fear that it was the beginning of the dreaded North American Union, which as we should all know here, is another stupid conspiracy theory. On the other hand, implementation of the TTC would make some conservatives weary for a few reasons:

a. It would have spent well over $100 billion.
b. It would have required the purchase of large swaths of land, which would require the use of imminent domain.
c. It would easily lead to corrupt contracts (especially with foreign companies getting some of the work).

Of course, these are all genuine concerns, but they are concerns about governmental infrastructure projects generally, and unless you are just opposed to governmental infrastructure projects, these are nothing to hold against Perry in particular.

5. Abortion and SSM as a state's rights issue - This is, to me (as a social conservative), the most serious concern, and oddly, one not often raised by anti-Perry activists (probably, I suspect, because the establishment types that hate him agree with that position!). It is a fact that Perry has said that once RvW is overturned that each state should decide its own abortion policies. He feels the same way about SSM.

Of course, I vehemently disagree with him on both matters, but there is always an "other side" to the story. In this case, Perry does believe that RvW ought to be overturned, and he would nominate judges to that end. And at this stage of the game, shy of signing a Human Life Amendment, that's all you can ask any pro-life President to really do in the broader fight. And on that note, he has clearly stated that he would sign a HML to the Constitution precisely on federalist grounds: that is, because other states would have to ratify it!

As to the issue of SSM, I think he's just being logically consistent. In fact, the ONLY candidate in the race who actually understands this issue is Rick Santorum. The typical argument conservatives gives for "traditional marriage" is fallacious -- indeed, the term "traditional marrage" itself gives away the farm. Perry is a lot of things, and a lot of them negative (he is human, after all). One of the things he is not is a moral philosopher acquainted with an Aristotelian, natural law approach to the issue of marriage. But shy of Santorum, no one is, so if this is a litmus test for you, then you only have one person you can support.

6. Record on executions - everyone knows murderers in Texas get executed. Sorry, this doesn't bother me. Maybe it bothers you. I can even admit the possibility of an innocent person being executed and it not change my position. I am pro-death-penalty. So is Perry. I'm not going to count that against him.

7. Most job creation is low/minimum wage - it is true that a great many of the jobs created in TX are low/minimum wage. But I think that's a silly argument for a conservative to make against Perry for three reasons:

a. Conservatives aren't supposed to believe in minimum wage at all! It's rather hypocritical to complain that people are "only" making minimum wage. If that's what the market demands, then that's the markets for you.

b. The cost of living in Texas is far lower than the cost of living in other states. In other words, two people making low wage jobs in Texas can live far more comfortably than two people making average wage jobs in, say, New York.

c. A minimum wage job is better than no job (especially in a state with such a low CoL). The fact is, he Texas is making jobs, even if many of them are minimum wage. We have to ask, why is Texas doing that while others aren't? Maybe it's TX' general belief in small government? I'd take that view in the White House, wouldn't you?

8. TX' poor educational standards - TX certainly spends less money than other states on education. And my response? So what? I thought conservatives believed that better results don't follow from more money? In any case, TX schools are not the best in the country, but they aren't the worst either. They're right about in the middle, which means they are just the same as most -- and that while spending less than others. Maybe they're doing something right educationally?

Now, there are more points, but these are the big ones I see tossed around. Frankly, none of them bother me. Against this, we have a man with twelve years of experience leading the largest state in the country. One of the reasons I love Huckabee is his experience. Perry has that by the truckload. He is undoubtedly a small-government conservative. There is a reason, after all, the Bush people hate him. Is he perfect? Of course not, but he believes in the right principles: lower, simpler taxes - less regulation - less litigation (who else can say they actually passed both tort reform and enacted loser-pay?!).

Is he perfect? Of course not. Is he the second coming of Christ? Clearly no. But neither would Huckabee have been. Would I vote for Huckabee over Perry? Absolutely, because Huckabee understands the moral issues more clearly and advocates the FairTax. Did Perry slight Huckabee? Yup. Does that disqualify him? No, it doesn't.

An honest assessment of his strengths and weaknesses makes it clear to me that he is the most qualified candidate currently in the Republican field. As for now, he has my support. I would vote for him in '12. I would NOT vote for Romney, and I would have a very hard time voting for Bachmann for the shear reason that she has so little experience. I'd vote for Santorum. I'd have voted for Pawlenty. I couldn't vote for Huntsman, and I'd have to seriously think about voting for Gingrich, as I would Cain (for the same reason as Bachmann). RP is a no-go due to his foreign policy.

Look, this is the field. No one else is getting in. Your top-tier is Perry, Romney, and Bachmann. Your second-tier is Paul, Gingrich, and Santorum. Cain and Huntsman bring up the rear. Take your pick. This has been long, I know, but it offers my thinking on why, after reading the worst about Perry, I'm looking forward to pulling the lever for him next year (hopefully twice).

And I hope he picks either Huckabee or Santorum as his VP.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:46 pm 
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WalterCan wrote:
I've got to post a few more things about Perry. I am constantly trying to do an inward check to make sure my strong feelings aren't coming from a bias or something else, but I just can't shake how strongly I feel that Perry may be one of the fakest candidates we've had run for office.

At least Romney has some substance. Granted that substance is all Wall Street Big Business Establishment Republican substance, but he is what he is. I have no idea what Perry is. I remember thinking in the primary season of 1999 that it was a tragedy that our frontrunner at that time was a Governor that had been groomed by his family and had no business being near the White House. I feel even stronger about Perry.

We've got to have someone else enter this field, but besides Huckabee I don't see anyone that I could support, is ready, and that could win. If Rubio had some experience under his belt then this would have been the perfect time for him to run, but it's just too early for him.

I don't like to judge, and especially of someone who identifies them-self as a Christian, but as I'll say again; I just can't shake the negative feelings I have about Perry.


I have some of the same "feelings" or concerns about Governor Perry. It is based partly on the fact that people here like ConservTexan and QVA who have actually experienced his leadership in Texas are concerned. I would like to hear more from Texans, especially.

Also, just because Perry gained my admiration by helping to sponsor the Call to Prayer does not mean Christian conservatives should not give his record, philosophy, goals, and character just as much scrutiny as the other candidates. Of course, most of the Republican candidates would be better than Obama. But we need someone outstanding like Huckabee in all departments: character, conservative policy, knowledge, understanding, and experience in governing. After all, the USA President has the most influential and powerful job in the world and must be an ambassador also for our nation and its principles of freedom under God. And now, more than ever, we need someone with the will and desire to turn our country back to more simple, local, responsible government. Someone who realizes the fiscal and moral crisis our country is in.

At the Iowa Straw Poll, everywhere Gov. Huckabee went, he got an earful from people begging him to get in the race. Part of Perry's sudden rise in popularity is due to the fact that voters do not feel that the right man is in the race.There is a vacuum of leadership and values. Perhaps if Perry's race does not take off Huckabee will reconsider??? :pray

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:53 pm 
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I don't like to judge, and especially of someone who identifies them-self as a Christian, but as I'll say again; I just can't shake the negative feelings I have about Perry.


Ditto....that is my feelings on Perry also. Hey, I started backing Huckabee off of a gut feeling and I wasn't wrong there, was I. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Jac, I think you're right in the sense that Perry's problems are pretty typical for politicians. There isn't necessarily anything that makes him clearly unacceptable.

But I think you actually concede too much to the assertions of the New York Times op-ed page with this one:

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7. Most job creation is low/minimum wage - it is true that a great many of the jobs created in TX are low/minimum wage.



From this highly informative post, http://www.politicalmathblog.com/?p=1590
The whole article does away with a lot of the myths liberals have been throwing around to try to discredit the Texas economy.
Quote:
Texas median hourly wage is $15.14 . . . almost exactly in the middle of the pack (28th out of 51 regions). Given that they’ve seen exceptional job growth (and these other states have not) this does not seem exceptionally low.

But the implication here is that the new jobs in Texas, the jobs that Texas seems to stand alone in creating at such a remarkable pace, are low paying jobs and don’t really count.

If this were true, all these new low-paying jobs should be dragging down the wages data, right? But if we look at the wages data since the beginning of the recession. . . .

And it turns out that the opposite is true. Since the recession started hourly wages in Texas have increased at a 6th fastest pace in the nation. . . . [T]he only blue state that has faster growing wages is Hawaii.



Another helpful article specifically going after Krugman's nonsense is by Kevin Williamson at National Review Online, http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer ... bout-texas

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:08 pm 
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And I hope he picks either Huckabee or Santorum as his VP.



I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. After the way Perry treated Governor Huckabee in 2008, they are certainly not political friends. As a matter of fact, if you recall, Huckabee had Kay Bailey Hutchinson on his show when she was up against Perry. No, I don't see Perry reaching out to Huckabee as a vp anymore than I see Romney doing it. Huckabee's chances of being vp at this point are nil, IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:11 am 
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Miserere wrote:
Jac, I think you're right in the sense that Perry's problems are pretty typical for politicians. There isn't necessarily anything that makes him clearly unacceptable.

But I think you actually concede too much to the assertions of the New York Times op-ed page with this one:

Very true, and thanks for the links to the other articles. As I've said, I've spent more time reading anti-Perry stuff than pro-Perry material, and while I was/am aware that the minimum wage argument is overblown, I'm trying not to come across as a Perry apologist per se. Yes, right now he has my support, but not my undying passion as did Huckabee. My only reason for writing was that I find just a bit dismaying the rather strong criticism of him around here. I'll not be so brash as to assign motives to individuals, but I'd be lying if I didn't think that some of it has to do with Perry's treatment of Huckabee.

In any case, your links just make my position that much stronger, I think. It seems to me that he is at least not obviously unacceptable, and the types of problems he has seem to just be endemic to politicians generally. I mean, you could even make a similar list out of Huckabee's record (willingness to consider tax increases, willingness to give money to the children of illegal aliens, etc.). Some of those things would be more defensible than others, but we all at least recognize here that for even those of us who couldn't buy every single defense and argument, then even those we concede were mistakes on Huckabee's part obviously did not make him unacceptable. I just don't see quite the same willingness to give Perry the same break here.

I am. He has the experience I want to see in a president. He holds to the right principles. He can win. He's got a great record on jobs, which is what this country really needs right now. Out of all the field, he's definitely the one I can see myself most easily getting behind, as all the other candidates either are unacceptable or have far more serious detriments (even if those detriments are not necessarily disqualifying).

Thanks again for the links.

nrobyar wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. After the way Perry treated Governor Huckabee in 2008, they are certainly not political friends. As a matter of fact, if you recall, Huckabee had Kay Bailey Hutchinson on his show when she was up against Perry. No, I don't see Perry reaching out to Huckabee as a vp anymore than I see Romney doing it. Huckabee's chances of being vp at this point are nil, IMO.

I don't hold my breath for anything anymore. Even if Perry did have a great relationship with Huckabee still, I can't see him picking him as a VP, just because tactically it doesn't seem to make too much sense. Why pick another strong governor from the South, especially one who is likely to excite the same base you already do?

Santorum is Catholic and from an important swing state. Yes, he lost it by a large margin in his last election, but it was in a bad year for Republicans generally, and the man could definitely wipe the floor with Biden. I can't really see him picking any of the other candidates as VPs . . . Cain is too marginalized. Bachmann is too inexperienced (see the McCain/Palin contrast again!). Newt is his own brand; he doesn't strike me as a bottom-of-the-ticket kind of guy. Romney . . . well, suffice it to say he's the chief rival. Paul? Next.

So . . . maybe Pawlenty? Or go outside of the presidential candidates entirely (Ryan, anyone)? My only point in raising Santorum is that out of the current crop, I would like to see him in that position and can see reason for him to be picked rather than the others. But who knows what he'll do if he gets the nomination. *shrug*

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:19 am 
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Jac3510 wrote:
Miserere wrote:
Jac, I think you're right in the sense that Perry's problems are pretty typical for politicians. There isn't necessarily anything that makes him clearly unacceptable.

But I think you actually concede too much to the assertions of the New York Times op-ed page with this one:

Very true, and thanks for the links to the other articles. As I've said, I've spent more time reading anti-Perry stuff than pro-Perry material, and while I was/am aware that the minimum wage argument is overblown, I'm trying not to come across as a Perry apologist per se. Yes, right now he has my support, but not my undying passion as did Huckabee. My only reason for writing was that I find just a bit dismaying the rather strong criticism of him around here. I'll not be so brash as to assign motives to individuals, but I'd be lying if I didn't think that some of it has to do with Perry's treatment of Huckabee.

In any case, your links just make my position that much stronger, I think. It seems to me that he is at least not obviously unacceptable, and the types of problems he has seem to just be endemic to politicians generally. I mean, you could even make a similar list out of Huckabee's record (willingness to consider tax increases, willingness to give money to the children of illegal aliens, etc.). Some of those things would be more defensible than others, but we all at least recognize here that for even those of us who couldn't buy every single defense and argument, then even those we concede were mistakes on Huckabee's part obviously did not make him unacceptable. I just don't see quite the same willingness to give Perry the same break here.

I am. He has the experience I want to see in a president. He holds to the right principles. He can win. He's got a great record on jobs, which is what this country really needs right now. Out of all the field, he's definitely the one I can see myself most easily getting behind, as all the other candidates either are unacceptable or have far more serious detriments (even if those detriments are not necessarily disqualifying).

Thanks again for the links.

nrobyar wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. After the way Perry treated Governor Huckabee in 2008, they are certainly not political friends. As a matter of fact, if you recall, Huckabee had Kay Bailey Hutchinson on his show when she was up against Perry. No, I don't see Perry reaching out to Huckabee as a vp anymore than I see Romney doing it. Huckabee's chances of being vp at this point are nil, IMO.

I don't hold my breath for anything anymore. Even if Perry did have a great relationship with Huckabee still, I can't see him picking him as a VP, just because tactically it doesn't seem to make too much sense. Why pick another strong governor from the South, especially one who is likely to excite the same base you already do?

Santorum is Catholic and from an important swing state. Yes, he lost it by a large margin in his last election, but it was in a bad year for Republicans generally, and the man could definitely wipe the floor with Biden. I can't really see him picking any of the other candidates as VPs . . . Cain is too marginalized. Bachmann is too inexperienced (see the McCain/Palin contrast again!). Newt is his own brand; he doesn't strike me as a bottom-of-the-ticket kind of guy. Romney . . . well, suffice it to say he's the chief rival. Paul? Next.

So . . . maybe Pawlenty? Or go outside of the presidential candidates entirely (Ryan, anyone)? My only point in raising Santorum is that out of the current crop, I would like to see him in that position and can see reason for him to be picked rather than the others. But who knows what he'll do if he gets the nomination. *shrug*



My big question for Perry is electability. We weren't even sure he was terribly electable here in Texas in his recent elections. :lol:

I still think Rubio has a good shot at veep. Everyone loves him, he's hispanic, yadda yadda.

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All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
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Your will is law in that small commonweal…
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:50 am 
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Miserere wrote:
My big question for Perry is electability. We weren't even sure he was terribly electable here in Texas in his recent elections. :lol:

This will be a jobs election. The contrast couldn't be starker. I don't have any doubts about his electability. Is he guaranteed to win? Of course not, but he's at least as electable as anyone else, if not more so, given his jobs numbers.

Quote:
I still think Rubio has a good shot at veep. Everyone loves him, he's hispanic, yadda yadda.

I think he has a great shot at VP. That bothers me, because as ardent of a supporter of him as I am, I really wish people would stop "jumping ahead." Look, experience is important to me, and as fantastic as Rubio is now, he'll be twenty times better in a few years. Give the man some time to learn the Senate, to learn Washington, to learn how things get done there. Give him some time to really experience the national scene. In the meantime, let him be very effective where he is. Start giving him leadership positions in the Senate. Put him in front of the camera as much as possible, etc. But don't make him VP just yet. In my opinion, he isn't ready yet. He wouldn't be a bad VP. He could just be much, much better if we are patient and call on him at the right time.

Remember, there is a time for everything, and you can do the right thing at the wrong time and thereby get the wrong results.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:11 am 
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Jac3510 wrote:
Miserere wrote:
My big question for Perry is electability. We weren't even sure he was terribly electable here in Texas in his recent elections. :lol:

This will be a jobs election. The contrast couldn't be starker. I don't have any doubts about his electability. Is he guaranteed to win? Of course not, but he's at least as electable as anyone else, if not more so, given his jobs numbers.

Quote:
I still think Rubio has a good shot at veep. Everyone loves him, he's hispanic, yadda yadda.

I think he has a great shot at VP. That bothers me, because as ardent of a supporter of him as I am, I really wish people would stop "jumping ahead." Look, experience is important to me, and as fantastic as Rubio is now, he'll be twenty times better in a few years. Give the man some time to learn the Senate, to learn Washington, to learn how things get done there. Give him some time to really experience the national scene. In the meantime, let him be very effective where he is. Start giving him leadership positions in the Senate. Put him in front of the camera as much as possible, etc. But don't make him VP just yet. In my opinion, he isn't ready yet. He wouldn't be a bad VP. He could just be much, much better if we are patient and call on him at the right time.

Remember, there is a time for everything, and you can do the right thing at the wrong time and thereby get the wrong results.



It'll be a jobs election, yes. But every election is decided by independents and swingers and they vote based on trust and personality, many of them anyway. And Perry can come off as inauthentic and smarmy.

Agreed about jumping the gun though. I say let Rubio marinate in the senate awhile. Obama sure could've used some of that.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:51 pm 
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I'm the first to admit that most of the negative vibes I have towards Perry have to do with the shabby way he treated Governor Huckabee (when he was supposed to be his friend) and the way he backstabbed President Bush. To me, that says a lot about character, or lack thereof. Everything about him smells of oportunism. Don't like the way he changed from a democrat who actively worked against President Bush to this great conservative. Reminds of another presidential candidate who ran against Ted Kennedy around that same time proclaiming to be more liberal than Kennedy on certain issues. I realize we have to vote for someone and no one is going to come anywhere in the same ball park with Governor Huckabee, but these candidates are so bad...


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Reagan was once a Democrat, and, apparently, so was much of Texas in the 80s and before. Gore himself was once far more conservative than he is now (before he got on the global warming kick). It could, and very likely is, a real case of the Democrat party becoming to liberal for Perry.

As for Bush, there has been a very long rivalry between the two men. They never did get along, based on all of what I've read, with Perry always thinking Bush was too big of a spender. Perhaps he disliked in Bush early on what so many conservatives only came to see in the last few years of his administration. If that is the case, then maybe Perry was just way ahead of the curve (which is doubly possible, considering he was way out in front in terms of supporting the Tea Party).

So is he an opportunist? Maybe. But as bad as the current so-called front runner? I don't think so. Again, I think that some of that criticism is just the very kind of criticism that can be labeled at politicians generally (not that there are no exceptions, of course). Politics just lends itself to that charge, and it is very easy to interpret the actions of someone you don't like in what you think to be a self-serving light -- same with the corporatism and crony-capitalism charge. Maybe there's something to it, but I'm sorry, it's not a solid accusation. It's based too much on interpretation of motives, which is never safe--especially when we have to go on to apply that same standard of comparison to other politicians.

He seems to have his principles right. Are there individual things to not like about him? Sure. Enough to have such awful, terribly, angry feelings? In my opinion, not in the least. It's not like he signed a health care law that included a universal mandate and $50 co-pays for abortions, you know . . . some objective disqualifier like that . . . I think we just have a case of hurt feelings here. And that is something I hope we can rise above.

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