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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Craig88USC wrote:
I pray that Huck's VALUABLE endorsement is either for Perry or Cain, but NOT Romney.

New poll out today..

“Generic” Republican and Obama, Obama wins by 5 points – 41-36.

•Despite several bad debate performances by Perry in September, when respondents watched a clip of Perry he actually gained more support than any of the other candidates and beat Obama by 6-points, 42-36.

•Now Romney had a slightly higher margin – he beat Obama by 7-points 40-33, but he did it with less support. He got less support than Perry, but so did Obama, and there were more people who were uncertain about him, which doesn’t come as a surprise — there’s clearly been a lot of dissatisfaction with Romney as the establishment candidate.

•Finally, the candidate we’re all most interested in — Herman Cain. The question is can he win the Republican primary? And can he win the general election?

•Well, he can certainly win the Republican primary. Across all treatments, when asked to choose among the eight GOP candidates, Cain won handily with 28% of the vote, followed by Romney at 19% and Perry at 12%.

•When it comes to a general election, Cain barely edged out Obama 35-34,

I'm not surprised that FOX will want to run this poll every hour but it is fundamentally a different way of measuring the horserace than any other poll out there.

By prompting the respondents with a video clip and a 120 word resume of each candidate you introduce an infinite number of variables. Which videos? Which particular economic issues? Why just those issues? Who decides what is or isn't an economic issue or the candiate at his/her best? Do you want to only show the canidate at their best? Who decides the text of most important resume features? Isn't that what a whole campaign is designed to do? Aren't the campaigns that can neatly package their message and candidate the way they want usually the winners? ... beat-obama

Frankly I think this poll is a clever idea whose time has not come and never will.

After framing each candidate you strip the Rorschach test quality of challengers facing unpopular incumbents. Obama won in 2008 (and Carter in 1976) largely by not being particularly well know and therefore being all things to all men who wanted "anyone but Bush" (even thoughBush wasn't even on the ballot).

I don't think we can really learn much by this poll.

"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes

Post by Southern Doc Liked by: Miserere
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Miserere wrote:
I think Romney continues to get away with the health care issue because Romneycare and Obamacare are in fact significantly different. The difference is that Romneycare is one state's answer to the problem of coverage, and Obamacare is an arguably unconstitutional, national system.

It's the mandate. The mandate! Which invites the most comparisons and is the most offensive to liberty minded folk.

Federalism is a fundamental conservative value that Obamacare violates. Romneycare obviously doesn't violate that value. Perhaps that's why the Heritage Foundation supported it.

When you veer off towards criticizing Romneycare on other grounds, it becomes less compelling.

After all, states require us to buy car insurance so long as we drive.

It's not hard to make the small jump to saying that a state should require us to buy health insurance. It's distinct from the car insurance case since here you don't have to do anything positive (like having a car and driving it) to be required to purchase health insurance. But everyone needs health care at some point, whereas everyone doesn't need to drive.

Now here's where I disagree. The state mandates that we purchase accident liability insurance if we choose to be licensed and registered drivers. We consent to that mandate by choosing to be lawful drivers.

The health insurance mandate is imposed on you just for being alive. There is no choice. The state mandates that you must contract with a private insurance provider or be penalized.

Furthermore, it's the nature of health that one can't know when one'll lose it, unlike the car insurance case in which you can plan to drive or not.

The aspect of the program that subsidizes coverage at certain levels is coherent once you adopt the mandate. If people can't afford it, how can they be expected to satisfy the mandate requirement? The subsidization is also consistent with the fact of the safety net. If you're poor enough you can qualify for medicaid. But a certain portion of the lower middle class that isn't poor enough for medicaid also can't afford their own health insurance. To not subsidize their coverage is to incentivize poverty, in a sense
This is the insanity inherent in government-think; Mandate something that you know not everyone can afford and then subsidize it with taxpayer funds. It's de facto wealth-transfer.

Now, you could say no level of government should be involved in helping provide healthcare. To be consistent, this would mean opposing medicare, medicaid, community health centers, etc. But none of the Republican candidates are going to go after these things. So it's difficult to go after Romneycare and make consistent sense doing so, in theory.

I would say that. I also say that medicare and medicaid are bad enough as federal plans, that we don't need to compound the problem by letting the government get more involved in a private matter.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:27 pm
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Romney is supposed to be a Conservative. What Conservative stand agrees with increasing the government on the state level that mandated healthcare does? Romney and Perry seem to think that it's okay to have mandated healthcare if the state wants it. What about the people in that state who can't afford it? Nobody mentioned last night that Romneycare would never have lasted this long if not for the money they get from the federal government for it.

I wonder sometimes if Huckabee has complimented Romney many times in the last few months because he would need the Mormon voters to accept him if he would get in the race. So, even if Huckabee gets into the 2012 race, how could he criticize Romney and get the Mormons who he lost in the 2007-2008 campaign?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:23 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
More than being a businessman, more than being a politician, and more than being a candidate, Romney is a salesman. He is like the pesky encyclopedia salesman from decades ago who just won't go away until you decide to buy a four year subscription to the World Almanac. He's interested in closing the deal and he'll change the pitch - or the product (himself) - as much as is necessary to seal the deal.


People hoping to choose a GOP candidate are so tired of getting visits from the kid selling newspapers, the annoying neighbor across the street, and from the Jehovah's Witnesses that the Encyclopedia Salesman doesn't look so bad in comparison. They think "he's well dressed ... he's well spoken ... he's neat ... he's polite and smiles a lot ... he's been out in the cold a long time now ... maybe I should crack the door open and talk to him. He bothers me less than the other folks.." But those who give in and settle for the Salesman, with the hope that he'll help educate the kids and ... well, we won't have to hear him knocking on the door anymore, will be disappointed in the long run. As soon as he's got your money and has what he wants, he's going to go on to his next job, going door to door selling Rolling Stone magazine, which he's been marketing to his less conservative customers - he is, after all, a salesman and wants to be everything to everybody. Want to buy a four year subscription?

I'm wearing out the salesman analogy a bit more as I'm thinking about the various endorsements Mitt is bringing home. It appears that the salesman is using one of the more time-tested approaches to closing the deal. Mr/Mrs/Ms. Voter, are you aware that many of your neighbors on Republican Road have bought subscriptions already? Don't you trust Bob across the street? How about Kevin - he bought from me. Do you think he would have done that if I were selling anything other than 100% conservative merchandise.

When you bring to his attention the fact that he's also been known to sell other material to the folks down on Liberal Lane, he manages to convince you that you are in fact his most important customer.

But, one thing about this persistent salesman is for sure. Mitt the closer will continue to knock on your door, changing both his product and his sales pitch, changing the core of what he says he believes and what he supports, over and over until you eventually buy and support him for President. He will not go away until you say "yes." Or until he finally gets bored and buys an NFL team instead (which is what I would do if I had his resources).

The Values Voter

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:00 am 
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TVV, you've really got to lay off this comparison of door-to-door salesman with Romney. Your giving all the poor guys a bad name. :D

It is funny though, watching as about 75% of all Republicans do not appear willing to even open the door wide enough for him to get his foot in the crack unless they are given absolutely no other choice by the powers that be.

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