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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:55 pm 
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I thank you for clarifying, SDoc & TVV - please be assured that I was not upset or offended by your posts. However, when the brethren do not have unity, it is naturally, as well as supernaturally, distressing, & I believe that we are supposed to question & challenge ourselves and each other - hopefully, with charity - in our efforts to discern God's will and be one even as He and the Father are One.

So I am actually very appreciative of both of your posts sharing your thought processes on this difficult subject - iron sharpening iron, right? We may not end up in agreement, but at least we will have worked out a stronger understanding of our positions.

And so, here's where my thoughts take me after reading over both of your posts a few times: The Lord warned us that we could not do evil to accomplish good. The greatest good - Jesus' salvific action on the Cross - was achieved by one who did the greatest evil. I often wonder if people really appreciate the full horrific gravity of God's Word that it would have been better for that person if he had never been born - this from a God whose norm is that it is better to have lived only briefly and died brutally than never to have existed at all.
Only God can bring good out of evil.

So we cannot enable or facilitate evil in an effort to bring about some greater good. Obama's leadership in the country is not a bitter medicine for us to choke down & endure until healing occurs (though God's allowing it to happen is); Obama's leadership, regardless of his personal intentions or beliefs, IS evil for it has increased evil and the power of evil in this country to an unprecedented extent.

Which is more deadly: slouching towards Gomorrah or diving in head first at breakneck speed? And which is easier to stop and reverse course from?

Can you imagine how God would view a hypothetical Israelite who allowed the Babylonians or the Persians to succeed in defeating Israel because this Israelite knew his country was overdue for God's punishment & that God was going to allow it to happen anyway? It is not for us to presume to know God's will or to second guess His timing or to presumptiously usurp His authority. If the evil is to be allowed, then God's will be done, but may God find us all still in the trenches & not on the sidelines castigating the home team for its flaws in the fight against evil when He comes.

What is the fruit of the tree of Obama winning a second term?
SDoc, you acknowledge yourself that the people who refused to vote for McCain did not accomplish the change that they hoped their abstention might provoke. The only positive changes that have been accomplished in the GOP came from the grassroots efforts to rebuild the party from the bottom up & throw the bums out. So it is those who have gotten involved, not those who have decided to let things go where they will, who are turning this ship around. There is a danger of self-fulfilling prophecy in this.

Obama already has appointed two SCOTUS's that almost make Ginsberg look moderate - we are one SCOTUS away from the gates of hell pouring forth in this country. If you saw a man drowning babies in the sea, you wouldn't refuse to support the person who offered to go in & rescue them because they weren't of good enough character or principles to be worthy of your service - meanwhile, truckload after truckload of babies are drowning while you are waiting for an acceptable hero to come along. Such principles our weak & vulnerable cannot afford.

Obama has already demonstrated that he will not listen to the people; we know from experience that the person who wants to be the GOP leader will. It is our fault for not holding them accountable & demanding more from them sooner, is it not? After all, we voted in men who superficially seemed to be men of upright character & that didn't advance our social conservative issues far, did it? But even the crooked ones recognize that they must toe a certain minimum line to retain their position.

And we must also recognize our failures to evangelize the culture as being at fault, too. Our leaders cannot advance the issues that matter to us unless there are enough people on our side of those issues to support their efforts democratically; they cannot do it with a minority.

The solution to our problem now is not going to be found by holding out for something that does not exist in this election; when we examine the fruit of previous efforts, it is clear that the solution lies in US and in our getting more involved in the process or at least supporting those who can.

With a GOP win, we can fight to make things better and fight for what we want with an authentic hope of succeeding; with an Obama win, fighting will avail us little if anything at all & likely lead to new levels of persecution & a tighter stranglehold on the political machinery by the anti-God forces. Therefore, we must do the best we can with what we have before us, prudentially, while continuing to pray to the Lord for His Mercy on our country.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:04 pm 
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When Huck stepped aside in May I was not looking for a candidate to support but living in Iowa makes it really hard to ignore the presidential race. Out of anybody, Rick Santorum is the one who continually caught my eye. It makes sense that he would since I am first and foremost a social conservative who believes our fiscal problems are tied directly to the breakdown of morality and the family. Plus, we get a real "close-up" view of the candidates and get to know them and their families and Santorum is strong on that front also. I also liked that he is strong on fiscal issues (welfare reform) and national security with experience to back it up.

I did not come out for him until the last ballot deadline came up as I knew I would be 110% Huckabee if he entered. I even questioned if I would take the time to help any other candidate, but something in me made me want to do something for Santorum because he has made the sacrifice to run for prez and he has been fighting for the the issues I care about for a long time. I cannot punish someone because I don't believe they are as good as Huckabee or because Huckabee chose not to run. This is the cards I have been dealt this election and this is my country and the future for my children. Santorum may not do much after Iowa, but in good conscience I cannot support someone just because they are projected as the "winner" and we also cannot predict the future anyway. And to be honest, I never thought I would be supporting someone who hasn't been a governor, but once again, this is the hand I have been dealt.

There are only a handful of others who I would consider voting for in the primary even though each of them scare me in one way or another. They would be Perry, Bachmann, and Newt....unless something "new" comes out about them. (Although, I am questioning Newt after reading some thoughts here.) The others I don't even want to think about as our nominee right now.

Word on the ground here is that we could start seeing a surge for Newt and Santorum. The problem with Newt is, however, is that he has no Iowa organization so I have no idea how they will organize a caucus for him. Cain also has little organization here. Polling will not reflect caucus night if the candidates don't have an organization to turn-out the vote.

As far as why Santorum isn't polling better right now...I don't have the answer. Just like I don't have the answer to why the man who was polling number one and who could champion my issues along with all the others and could take it all the way to the White House isn't in this race.

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Post by Iowans Rock has received Likes: 2 ConservTexan, TheValuesVoter
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:17 pm 
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I think if I lived in IA or any of the other early states I would support Santorum. Since I live in CO where Romney is likely to do quite well I am torn between Santorum and Gingrich. I will wait and see what happens in the early states. I think I prefer Santorum over Gingrich. Out of the two I actually think Gingrich has the better political skills but perhaps once Santorum does well in some early states he will get the support he needs to beat Obama. I'm in wait and see mode. I won't go out and campaign for anyone but when the time comes I hope to be at the caucus. If nothing else, I'd like to get more involved in the local party because CO GOP has put forward some really bad candidates over the past few years.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:48 pm 
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QVA - I think you are way ahead of where I was going with my posts.

Where we all still agree is in the fact that all the candidates have flaws. What we consider the most serious flaws is very much a matter of debate.

I think TVV's three points concerning Newt are all valid.

For lots of GOP voters, including many here I respect, the whole "Calista and I" issue just isn't an issue for them. But I've lived in Arkansas half my life and the Clinton wounds are pretty deep in my body. I had one too many lost arguments with folks for whom it was always "the economy stupid" and any consideration that the long range damage done by a moral reprobate as head of government, especially having a serial liar (and ALL serial adulterers are also serial liars) as head of government, would sow seed that would return a whirlwind. But the 90's were fat times and moral character was to be measured by a politician's "public" not "private" acts, his intellect not his personal issues. I thought then, and still believe now, no such compartmentalization exists. Those who are unfaithful to one covenant will be unfaithful to another. How can a man who is known to have broken one sacred oath before God and a company of witnesses be believed on a January day his hand resting on a Bible in front of the Capitol?

The one thing I would hasten to add is that we do not, in spite of the best efforts of some, live under a dictatorship. The House, the Senate, yes even the Courts, all check an unlimited "reign of terror" by Obama. Since I do not believe ANY of the current crop of GOP candidates has the "right stuff" to beat Obama in 2012, I take solice in that fact.

Quote:
Which is more deadly: slouching towards Gomorrah or diving in head first at breakneck speed? And which is easier to stop and reverse course from?


I suppose the answer to the above is conditioned by which of the two events leads to an actual reversal of direction.

Clearly "slow decline" seems better than "rapid decline" in the same way that "mild pain" is better than "severe pain," but if the mild pain only prompts the taking of pain killers where severe pain prompts changes in the diabetics life, then worse is better.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:27 pm 
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I blame Huckabee. :?

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The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:37 pm 
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I have always predicted that if Huckabee does not run Romney will be the nominee and Obama will win a second term. It is not what I want but it is what I predict.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:50 pm 
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Iowans Rock wrote:
I have always predicted that if Huckabee does not run Romney will be the nominee and Obama will win a second term. It is not what I want but it is what I predict.


I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:54 am 
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Iowans Rock wrote:
I have always predicted that if Huckabee does not run Romney will be the nominee and Obama will win a second term. It is not what I want but it is what I predict.


I've been telling my mom this for quite a while. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't think so.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:12 pm 
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FYI Newt is now in second in an Iowa poll with 18%. Cain was still first with 22%. Romney was at 15% and Bachmann and Paul were tied for 4th with 11%. The continued attacks on Cain, as expected, will drive his numbers down and his supports to the next in line; that happens to be Newt. This could all end up being a timing thing as to who is next in line to be the "anyone-but-romney" vote getter. Or maybe someone will stick. I think Newt will move into first by thanksgiving, but I am worried that his personal missteps in the past could cost him alot of votes...but it is good to see that 18% of Iowans are already on board and I would think they'd be some of the strictest as far as a conservative record goes. Unless Santorum makes some crazy move in the polls, my vote is for Newt....actually even IF Santorum moves up, Newt might get my vote. I think he is one of maybe 3 candidates that can beat Obama out of the current field.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:28 am 
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I think he is the only one who has even a small chance of beating Obama out of the lousy candidates we have running. I don't think what happened some 20 yrs. ago should be held over Gingrich's head. I know everyone has done things in their lives, if they've lived long enough, that they regret. He seems to have straightened his life out and he is the most knowledgeable of any of the candidates. He is staying out of the mud slinging and cominig off as being "the adult" in the group, the uniter, (what Governor Huckabee is so good at doing). Im not excited about him, but I feel good voting for him.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:02 am 
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I do think if Newt got the nomination he would pick Huckabee to be his VP, while if Romney gets the nomination I do not think he will pick Huckabee.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:49 pm 
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I don't want another McCain "anointed by the GOP and media" candidate, and I don't want ROMNEY..do you? Right now in Iowa and NH, it's all about gaining traction and eliminating the unelectable.
THIS IS WHY Newt is my candidate:

In 2008 former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee won Iowa but McCain took New Hampshire and, eventually, the nomination.

Why hasn’t any Republican candidate been able to pull off wins in both of the two earliest voting states?

The most obvious reason is that the states tend to have very different electorates.

A caucus state, Iowa is heavily influenced by evangelical voters looking for a candidate who puts a premium on social conservative touchstones like abortion. Republicans in New Hampshire, on the other hand, are traditionally far more focused on fiscal issues than social ones.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/mitt-romney-tries-to-make-history-in-iowa-and-new-hampshire/2011/12/28/gIQAoCdTNP_blog.html?wpisrc=nl_politics

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:14 pm 
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The thing I don't get about the platitude re NH being moderate/fiscally oriented is Pat Buchanan. If Pitchfork Pat can carry the state, then any socon can.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:12 pm 
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In 2008 the one of the current GOP candidates that had anything good to say about Huckabee was Newt Gingrich!!

Many have decided to support Santorum. But did they know this about Santorum when they made that decision:
The truth about Santorum... He wants Huckabee supporters to think he is the next Mike Huckabee but take a look at what he said in 2008!!
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/01/a ... tt-romney/

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— Sen. Rick Santorum, 2/1/2008, 4 days before Super Tuesday


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:50 pm 
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If I was thinking of supporting Santorum this comment would certainly change my mind. I didn't support Perry when he was surging, for the most part, because of the lousy treatment he gave Governor Huckabee in 2008. That statement by Santorum followed by his statements this time out trying to compare himself the THE GOV seem almost hypocritical to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:21 pm 
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nrobyar wrote:
If I was thinking of supporting Santorum this comment would certainly change my mind. I didn't support Perry when he was surging, for the most part, because of the lousy treatment he gave Governor Huckabee in 2008. That statement by Santorum followed by his statements this time out trying to compare himself the THE GOV seem almost hypocritical to me.
This has got to be one of the most conflicted voting decisions for me in my lifetime. Part of it is due to what you have just hit on. I do not like ANYONE dissing Gov Huckabee past or present. Plus I hold grudges and can't let go of the past!

So should I vote for someone like Santorum who dissed Huckabee in 2008 or forgive and forget? He is the most conservative and has walked the walk in both personal and his political life. He did, however, endorse and support Arlen Specter in the turncoats last re-election. :barf

He is accepting Mike's support and encouragement in his bid for POTUS. I would think he would have to consider the Gov for a VP slot since he would definitely add executive experience to the ticket without compromising his social values (which seem very important to him and which I would not compromise either)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:38 am 
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And yet Huck has clearly not held it against him and speaks very positively about him.

And I'm not quite sure why it is necessary to discuss the issue of Santorum's Romney endorsement by spamming it on every active topic on the board?
Here is my response to the irony I perceive in this objection
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=26067&p=219617#p219617

Let's please continue talking TO each other and not AT each other with the charity and respect that we all have come to know & love here lest this board sink to the level of all the other political forums.



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Put me down for a Newt/Huck ticket!

Anyone here think Santorum would not be hitting Huck with harsh attack ads if Mike were in the GOP contest? It's a safe bet he would be. Newt has his baggage, but he at least would have treated Mike with respect had they been competitors for the nomination. I don't think I could say that about any of the other folks still in the race right now.

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Post by goalieman has received Likes: 2 christopher.wilkerson, Texan4Huckabee
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:50 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Put me down for a Newt/Huck ticket!

Anyone here think Santorum would not be hitting Huck with harsh attack ads if Mike were in the GOP contest? It's a safe bet he would be. Newt has his baggage, but he at least would have treated Mike with respect had they been competitors for the nomination. I don't think I could say that about any of the other folks still in the race right now.


Perhaps he would, it's politics. Just like Mike was going after Romney last time. I don't expect everyone to be deferential to Huckabee just because I support him.

Newt's being kind to everyone is good and well, but let's not pretend like it's entirely out of the goodness of his heart. It's in Newt's interest that the primary is conducted in as polite and positive a manner as possible because Newt has more negatives than any other candidate.

_________________
THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
G.M. Hopkins.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:56 pm 
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goalieman wrote:
Newt has more negatives than any other candidate.


More than our real enemy...OBAMA??

What does it matter, as long as our candidate is the one who can WIN? How many issues that you stand for will be validated and upheld in 4 more years of Obama?

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