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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:36 pm 
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I certainly would agree that the NOI is a hate group. I personally loathe Farrakhan. No one in elected politics should have any association with that group and those who do should be harshly criticized just as those who belong to the Council of Conservative Citizens should. And most certainly no public funding should go in that group's direction. I despise the racist statements and sentiments that those organizations represent.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:20 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
I certainly would agree that the NOI is a hate group. I personally loathe Farrakhan. No one in elected politics should have any association with that group and those who do should be harshly criticized just as those who belong to the Council of Conservative Citizens should. And most certainly no public funding should go in that group's direction. I despise the racist statements and sentiments that those organizations represent.


TVV - I knew this of you and expected nothing less.

What I am curious about is why do you suppose that the Dems, especially African-American Democratic Party politicians, are not required to disassociate from such groups or to publically condemn their leaders and beliefs?

Why are there so many members of the Nation of Islam given that it is clearly a racist supremacist group (with 10,000 to 50,000 members and its leader regularly drawing audiances of 30,000)?

If the KKK were a public force with proportional membership it would number between 125,000 and 550,000? [rather than the current KKK estimate of 3,000 to 5,000] and no stadium in America would be large enough to host the 200,000 cheering fans to listen to its leader foment hate. Let us further suppose the membership (like that of the NOI) was drawn from the ranks of the poor, less educated, whites with an active recruitment effort among prison populations. If this were the case, would we be hearing praise for their call for "self-help?" Would we hear nothing at all? Would we hear loud denounciations and calls for legislation and justice department actions to curtail such a threat to the body politic?

Would a call sponsored by an openly supremacist group for a collective show of solidarity along racial lines in the form of a March on Washington be met with support and active participation from groups sympathetic to the "greater cause" of addressing the plight of poverty, ignorance, and crime among the effected group even though these allied groups did not "fully share" the sponsoring group's supremacist central ideology?

There is simply a glaring blind spot on race and race politics in American society and it is a cancer that threatens the fagile success that has been gained by thousands of whites, blacks, jews, and purples of color (yes I meant that :wink: ).

My study of history show me that the most dangerous kind of racism is created when this basic human sin is given opportunity to grow. If a society treats it like a dangerous weed, it still may grow, but it will be forced to survive on the edge of the fields and in the cracks of abandoned sidewalks. If, however it is not recognised as a weed, if it is even cultivated as a beautiful white, or black, or purple, flower (weeds ofted do have their charms) it will take over and choke out ever other plant.

The condemnation of white racism has been highly successful in making such behavior socially unacceptable and reducing its influence. The worst part of Southern racism historically was that it wasn't even seen as bad, was often extolled as positive, or defended at a minimum as needed for group success against enemy groups like the Damned-Yankee-Black-Republicanism. It really was true that the "best people" of the South subscribed to this. Wonderful, kind, considerate, honest, Christian servants, were blind to the fact that God was not a respector of persons and their actions were sinful, selfish, and risked sowing a harvest of wrath for this world and the one to come.

But the condemnation of racism generically has been far less of a success. What I see are folks who are equally blind to their own racism today. Like Southern whites they have their reasons and their rationalizations both historic and imagined. What they do not have as Christians is a right to be respectors of persons. And if they believe we must be salt and light on such issues, the have the duty to oppose such behavior everywhere.

I do not expect utopia, but I know that until the "sister Souljah" moment comes from leaders within the African-American community to call out and shame obvious racism, as such leaders had to emerge at considerable risk from among the white Southern leadership (Leroy Collins, LBJ, Billy Graham), we will risk a return to unashamed white racism and its malignant growth.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:33 pm 
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It is the relative obscurity of events like these that convince me of just how far we have to go as a nation till we reach a point where "post-racial" means anything other than the end of "white supremacy" and its replacement with someother manifestation.


Quote:
SPRINGFIELD — In a rebuke to Gov. Pat Quinn, the Illinois Senate on Thursday rejected a Nation of Islam follower whose website advocates black separatism for a third term on the state Human Rights Commission.

The Senate voted down public-access cable television personality Munir Muhammad for the $49,960-a-year post after Republicans condemned his group’s Web page, which warns against racial mixing and advocates a separate territory within the U.S. for the descendents of slaves, both ideologies advanced by Nation of Islam founder Elijah Muhammad.

Munir Muhammad’s group, the Coalition for the Remembrance of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, also parrots Elijah Muhammad’s views on its website that blacks should not be taxed and black children be taught separately “by their own teachers.”

“To appoint someone with these radical views to the Human Rights Commission, I think, is a travesty,” said Sen. Tim Bivins (R-Dixon).

Bivins also pointed to excerpts from one of Munir Muhammad’s television broadcasts in which he praised Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a “patient man.”

Muhammad, first appointed to the post in 2003 by Gov. Rod Blagojevich, needed 30 votes to win reappointment. But he drew only 20 votes, with 30 senators voting against his nomination and four voting present.

“He’s not being appointed to some transportation authority or some other benign committee. He’s making decisions about human rights, and he says himself that he ascribes to a belief that says race-mixing and interracial marriage is wrong,” said Sen. Dale Righter (R-Charleston). “Can there really be a debate here that this person has no business being on the Human Rights Commission?”

Muhammad, of South Holland, hosts two talk shows, “Muhammad and Friends” and “The Munir Muhammad Show,” which air across the country. He has had a political who’s who on his programs.

...snip (including Obama and Dick Durban)...

Responding to GOP criticism, several black senators defended Muhammad, insisting he didn’t embrace the views on his organization’s website and claimed he would take them down. They said he is an open-minded individual.


http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/1 ... -post.html

When Muir was first appointed it was by "voice vote" which in the Illinois Senate requires that no one object. Senator Obama was present in the chamber.
Quote:
It would be nice to think that Munir Muhammad’s success was an individual blind spot in the system, but it wasn’t. Claudette Marie Muhammad, Chief of Protocol in the Nation of Islam, had been appointed to the Illinois Anti-Discrimination Panel. And there was Willie Barrow, the Chairwoman of the Commission on Discrimination and Hate Crimes, an enthusiastic admirer of Farrakhan and one of Obama’s Faith Endorsers. A woman whom Michelle Obama described as “our friend”.


http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfiel ... nection/2/

Quote:
COALITION FOR THE REMEMBRANCE OF ELIJAH MUHAMMAD DAY

WHEREAS, the Coalition for the Remembrance of Elijah Muhammad (C.R.O.E.) is celebrating their 19th Anniversary Founders’ Day on February 12, 2006; and

WHEREAS, founded in 1987 by Halif Muhammad, Shahid Muslim and Munir Muhammad, all of whom still serve the organization, C.R.O.E. exists to pay tribute to The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and ensure that his accomplishments and ideas are not forgotten; and

WHEREAS, the Coalition for the Remembrance of Elijah Muhammad continues to be an invaluable institution and an important voice in both the African-American community and among the general public:

THEREFORE, I, Rod R. Blagojevich, Governor of the State of Illinois, do hereby proclaim February 12, 2006 as COALITION FOR THE REMEMBRANCE OF ELIJAH MUHAMMAD DAY in Illinois, and encourage citizens to recognize the organization’s nineteen years of service to Illinois citizens and their ongoing commitment to ensuring the legacy of this influential African-American leader.

Issued by the Governor on February 9, 2006.

http://capitolfax.com/2006/03/10/this-c ... d-thing-2/

I genuinely long for the day when President Obama will clearly speak out against all forms of racism and when the expectaion to disassociate from racial extremist is not itself applied in a discriminatory manner.

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"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Racism knows no color boundaries and it exists in all directions. I condemn all of it. What I don't understand - thankfully - is why it's so hard for some people to understand that humanity and brotherhood are not defined by racial boundaries. It's not that hard a concept.

I think more than anything else, racism is a spiritual issue. The devil wants to use any tool possible in order to cause people to hate each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Don't get me started on Farrakhan and the NOI. They are openly, blatantly racist against white people and Jewish people and no one should in any way celebrate their ignorance and give them a platform. I absolutely loath what they stand for.

I know that there are people out there who follow them and pay attention to what they say. I don't think I can really give a good opinion on why they do. I don't have anyone who I associate with, now or in the past, who supports that nonsense. I did have a barber once who used to always talk about Farrakhan. I used to tell him how I disagreed and disliked him and he became pretty hostile to me.

I think that in general, racism is the same thing no matter whose heart it lives in. Racist blacks and racist whites both have similar thought patterns. Actually, there are amazing similarities between the rhetoric of Farrakhan and that of white supremacists. They both hate Jewish people. Amazingly, Farrakhan was invited to speak at a white supremacist meeting. Malcolm X was once sent by Elijah Muhammad to reach out to the KKK as both groups opposed integration.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:39 pm 
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The article you cite is from "The Daily Current" (full name: The Daily Current: the Global Satirical Newspaper of Record). It is full of outrageous fabrications that people who are predisposed to wish to believe often take to heart and repost (a chronic problem that also involves all those wonder e-mails we all get from left and right).

Today's Daily Current articles include:

Quote:
Defeated presidential candidate Mitt Romney claimed today he could have won last week's election had his campaign offered black voters government-funded fried chicken.

French President François Hollande imposed a new tax on breathing today.
The Contribution Respiratoire de Solidarité (CRS) will place a €2000 charge on every 100m3 of air expelled from a rich French person's lungs in an effort to close the country's gaping budget deficit.Former Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives Newt Gingrich announced today that he voted for himself as a write in candidate for President.

The Georgia native ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination this year, dropping out in May and endorsing Mitt Romney.
However, Gingrich says when the time came to mark his ballot last week, he couldn't in good conscience vote for anyone but himself: ...

http://dailycurrant.com/


Welcome to our brave new world of virtual "history" folks. Outrageous claims, even those not intended to be believed, now have a infinite ability to spread and are impossible to contain or kill. The age of ever more self-segregated "echo chamber" information at the click of a keyboard - yippie.

BTW- Gordon Liddy is retired and his show ended in July.

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Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:12 pm 
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TheValuesVoter wrote:
Don't get me started on Farrakhan and the NOI. They are openly, blatantly racist against white people and Jewish people and no one should in any way celebrate their ignorance and give them a platform. I absolutely loath what they stand for.

I know that there are people out there who follow them and pay attention to what they say. I don't think I can really give a good opinion on why they do. I don't have anyone who I associate with, now or in the past, who supports that nonsense. I did have a barber once who used to always talk about Farrakhan. I used to tell him how I disagreed and disliked him and he became pretty hostile to me.

I think that in general, racism is the same thing no matter whose heart it lives in. Racist blacks and racist whites both have similar thought patterns. Actually, there are amazing similarities between the rhetoric of Farrakhan and that of white supremacists. They both hate Jewish people. Amazingly, Farrakhan was invited to speak at a white supremacist meeting. Malcolm X was once sent by Elijah Muhammad to reach out to the KKK as both groups opposed integration.


I again am not surprised that you loathe the group. But I am surprised that you do not venture an explanation as to why there is not only little condemnation for the group, but often open support among the principle leaders of the political class of the African-American community. The reason is the same for why Trent Lott continued to want to say a kind word about Strom Thurmond and his 1948 run for President - he, and many of his core constituents, were sympathetic to his cause. But the reaction to that "tell" ended his career.

And yet seven of the eight members of the Illinois Senate Black Caucus (which includes the Senate President) rose to the defense of Munir Muhammed. The one exception was a non-vote. This too is a "tell," but not a career ending one. The career ending choice would be to vote against him. And that fact is very, very, sad. It is also the basis for much of the GOP belief that outreach to the African-American community is quixotic. They are pragmatically right.

But I am not a pragmatist but an idealist and I personally like Don Quixote and would vote for his dream any day. I too have a dream of an America where the content of character matters more than the color of skin.

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"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:39 am 
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Southern Doc wrote:
I again am not surprised that you loathe the group. But I am surprised that you do not venture an explanation as to why there is not only little condemnation for the group, but often open support among the principle leaders of the political class of the African-American community.


Based on my experiences, I think that the perception that there is a massive level of support for people like Farrakhan among black people is probably an exaggeration. I know a lot of people and I've rarely heard a kind word spoken about Farrakhan or the NOI. At the time of the Million Man March in 1995, I used to go to a church in Washington D.C. which had an almost entirely black membership. I remember talking to guys about the march - because it was happening in our backyard - and a lot of people were not even thinking about going because Farrakhan and NOI was involved. I know that there are people who are heavy into what those types think. But because my sphere of contacts don't really include those folks, I guess the best I can do is take a guess. While I know why it is that people have a problem with the GOP, I don't have as clear of an idea about why people would give Farrakhan the time of day.

My guesses - Farrakhan, as much as he spews verbal venom, is a good, charismatic speaker (as was Hitler, reportedly). For people who tend to blame other people for their problems, he, like racists and hatemongers of other hues, articulates reasons why they should focus their anger on something external to them. I think people like being able to blame their problems on other people. Also, the NOI has a reputation for having men who are confident (albeit in the wrong thing) and who are unafraid to take on crime in a local community. Some people who commit crimes and become incarcerated or who have drug problems end up being "rescued" by that cult and develop a sense of purpose (albeit the wrong purpose). And so people see a bunch of NOI guys in a neighborhood and see that those guys are not afraid to confront and drive away the drug dealers and other troublemakers. This probably contributes to some of their credibility with some of their supporters and might also explain some of their political support.

But, no matter what, there is no excuse for a group or party associating with someone who is clearly a racist hateful person. Everybody - and I mean everybody - should be questioned - black or white, Republican or Democrat - for being associated with people like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:46 am 
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Quote:
I think people like being able to blame their problems on other people. Also, the NOI has a reputation for having men who are confident (albeit in the wrong thing) and who are unafraid to take on crime in a local community. Some people who commit crimes and become incarcerated or who have drug problems end up being "rescued" by that cult and develop a sense of purpose (albeit the wrong purpose). And so people see a bunch of NOI guys in a neighborhood and see that those guys are not afraid to confront and drive away the drug dealers and other troublemakers. This probably contributes to some of their credibility with some of their supporters and might also explain some of their political support.


You have just well summed up the appeal of the Klan in the South of the 1860's early 70's, as well as the "new" Klan of the 1920's. Many good people were swept up into their membership. Yet, like the NOI, they were always first and foremost a racial supremacist group and that was not a secret but the core of their appeal. Southern politicians of the period were often either "ex" Klansmen or known to agree them as, albeit at times difficult, allies.

The problem was simple. Southern whites didn't think racism a problem or something that applied to themselves. While some Southerners thought the Klan went too far, or lacked political skill, or risked Northern retaliation, almost all Southerners at some level believed in the need of racial solidarity. The genteel Southerners blanched at the crude demagogues and their N***** rants, while still subscribing to a more domesticated racism in reference to "nigras." These souls were not the raging arsonists of hate, but they were also nothing like firemen - because at their core the "fire" (white pride and solidarity) was not the problem only its uncontrolled ravenous hunger. The "fire" had built civilization, kept the community warm and fed, and held at bay the wolves that would destroy them.

By the "third Klan" of the 1950's (which still proved a major challenge) attitudes had shifted. The number of extreme racists were less, the number of moderate "fire watching" bystanders were more, and the emergence of folks who actually had come to think that racism itself was wrong (or at minimum bad for the South and too dangerous to permit anyone to play with). The "third Klan" was not generally openly supported and was shunned to a degree that shocked its own membership who were often the children of the leadership of the Klan of the 20's. This was a very hopeful sign.

I am awaiting the same sign in relation to the open arsonists of racism in other communities.

The good news and bad news is that people. regardless of race, act the same way. They might be a little better at fighting off the worst of human nature, or promoting the best, when their own culture demands it of them. When that culture is supportive of bad behaviors, or silent, the fires burn.

The problem with the NOI is simple. Too many African-Americans don't think racism is a problem within their community or something that applies to them as individuals. I have had scores of conversations in university settings with African-American students and scholars who vehemently deny that the them "racism" can ever be applied to a minority group and redefine the term in a way that exempts or excuses openly racist behaviors. This reminds me of the genteel Southerners who reserved the term "racists" to others while subscribing to the core elements, and practicing the more genteel expressions.

Clearly you are not alone among African-Americans who think the NOI goes too far, or lacks political skill, or risks white retaliation, but far too many at some level believe in the need of racial solidarity. And no sign of condemnation arises from the political class of black elected officials. The genteel "post-racial" members of the community blanch at the crude demagogues and their N***** rants, while still subscribing to a more domesticated racism of "racial pride." These souls were not the raging arsonists of hate, but they are also nothing like firemen - because at their core the "fire" (racial pride and solidarity) is not the problem only its uncontrolled ravenous hunger. The "fire" had built civilization (even the claim that before their was history their identity built history), keeps the community warm and fed, and holds at bay the wolves that would destroy them.

The tolerance of the NOI at the center of the politcal structure of the African-American Democratic Party leadership, and the election benefit that this tolerance clearly reaps for such leaders, tells me that the community is at best stuck in the equivalent of the South of the 40's and perhaps far earlier.

What bothers me most about this double standard is not my supposed "victimhood" of "reverse discrimination." What bothers me is that the fire of racism is not a respector of persons. When it is permited to burn unchecked anywhere, it will soon spread everywhere. The hard won degree of racial tolerance that has changed the South and the nation is at risk of slipping away.

We now have a generation of white youth with ZERO memory of a JimCrow America and ZERO sense of white guilt to repair the damage of 400 years of institutional racism. They are however, extremely sensitive to acts of discrimination against any person or group. But they are also cynical and despise hypocrisy. Their world is already cluttered with shattered icons of noble virtues. If they detect that the rules applied to racism are conditional to race, it will deepen their cynicism and move them more and more toward the preservation of their own self-interests. Virtually every outright racist thing I hear from white students comes, not from the sons and daughters of the bogeyman "Southern strategy" GOP party regulars, but rather from those who are abandoning all the high minded hollow values rhetoric for the selfish realist philosophy of the libertarians. That is my nightmare.

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"As for us, our days of combat are over. Our swords are rust. Our guns will thunder no more. The vultures that once wheeled over our heads must be buried with their prey. Whatever of glory must be won in the council or the closet, never again in the field. I do not repine. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war; we have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top."

Oliver Wendell Holmes


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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:47 pm 
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I think it is imperative that all racism - racial resentment from any person and in any direction - be opposed by everybody

It is clearly a lie for anyone to suggest that racism is not an evil that can reside in any human heart. It's all the same thing and we are all vulnerable to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:53 pm 
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TVV or a moderator, could we remove the satire of Buchanan?

Anyone who's familiar with Buchanan would know, even if that had been reported on a real news site, that he'd never said any of those stupid things.

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THE TIMES are nightfall, look, their light grows less;
The times are winter, watch, a world undone:
They waste, they wither worse; they as they run
Or bring more or more blazon man’s distress.
And I not help. Nor word now of success:
All is from wreck, here, there, to rescue one—
Work which to see scarce so much as begun
Makes welcome death, does dear forgetfulness.
Or what is else? There is your world within.
There rid the dragons, root out there the sin.
Your will is law in that small commonweal…
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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Yes, I will remove it and meant to do it earlier. I was not aware when I posted it that it was satire. I will delete that message.

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:35 am 
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Tonight, former Republican Oklahoma Congressman J.C. Watts said many of the same things that I've been saying here regarding the GOP and diversity.


J.C. Watts on the GOP & diversity: "if it's good for God, it ought to be good for Republicans"


http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/05/j-c-watts-on-the-gop-diversity-if-its-good-for-god-it-ought-to-be-good-for-republicans/


I love his quote toward the end of this clip "how perplexing it is ... to get people to vote for you when you don't know them."

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 Post subject: Re: Voter Fraud?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:42 am 
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A longer clip of Watts' interview on CNN tonight. What I love about the clip is that he also calls attention to how some Republicans are reacting to the aftermath of the election by trying to turn against social conservatives.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/12/06/exp-erin-watts-takes-on-own-party.cnn

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