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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:41 pm 
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The onslaught against family values continues. Gay marriage is now legal in America's biggest state, California:

http://www.redstate.com/redhot/robert_a ... y_marriage

This is huge huge news that will affect the November elections. We need to:

1) Pray for this country
2) Contact Mike Huckabee. He needs to get on top of this issue quickly and be our spokesman in the media for why we need a federal marriage amendment. DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN INSIDE TRACK TO HUCKABEE?

3) Support the California Marriage Protection act:

http://www.protectmarriage.com/

This is infuriating. We need to rise to the occasion and stand up for righteousness.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:59 pm 
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I hear you, wiseguy. This is truly sickening. We must continue on fighting and fighting harder than ever before because it's seeping through. We need to put a stop to it before it gets out of hand. God bless.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:01 pm 
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May I play devil's advocate?

I personally firmly stand on the side of life and the preservation of marriage as my personal values choice.

Other people may make a personally 'wrong' values choice as we see it. But how much right do we have as individuals to legislate away their rights to 'equality under the law?'

Sometimes I think we fear a stampede of 'coming outs' that would further undermine our social fabric, but I don't know if the legalization of gay marriage wil result in a surge of overall 'gayness' in society.

I struggle with this sometimes when I think of the Ceasar/God argument.

Should human beings have the right to make a wrong choice without our governmental interference? Even God gave us free wills to choose not to serve Him.

I don't think we should make it easy... and we should definately continue to advocate for the traditional family... I just sometimes feel badly that we paint gay people into a box that makes them the scary 'other' to be booted from acceptable society.. and I don't know if that's the approach Jesus himself would take.

How do you love the sinner yet hate the sin in this situation?

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:15 pm 
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My concern is that in my job, one of the things I do is issue marriage licenses. I asked my boss today that if our state legalizes gay marriage, would I be required to issue them instead of handing them off to an employee who doesn't object to it. He said I would be required even if my faith compelled me otherwise.

I'm very concerned.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:25 pm 
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First of all, we're not taking away their "equality under the law." They have the same rights as you and I: they can be married to one consenting adult of the opposite sex, just like you and I can.

We're also not trying to take away their freedom to make wrong choices. We're merely taking a stand that one small segment cannot force the whole of society to re-define a long-standing, God-ordained, nature-confirmed, tradition-upheld institution.

The way I explain marriage amendments to people is this: The government isn't really "defining marriage," because it has no power to do that. All it is doing is defining what the government will recognize to be marriage.

So, our government, in many ways, permits immorality. But it should not sanction, endorse, legitimize, encourage--whatever term you want to use--it.

That's what it comes down to. Will the government, through its laws, normalize and effectually make a moral statement about this country on the topic of appropriate sexuality? If so, what statement should it make?

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Sure, a devil's advocate is welcome, as it makes the overall argument stronger!

The issue is whether the majority of Americans have the right to create a society as they desire, according to their moral beliefs. I wouldn't want my children growing up in a confused society where gay marriage is not only allowed but also promoted in the schools and in the media. So it is not only a personal decision -- it also affects culture as a whole, and many people would argue that it would damage the social fabric of our nation. Gay marriage undermines the very nucleus of the family, which is the principal building block of our communities, and ultimately our nation.

Also, regarding the Ceasar question, look to the behavior of the righteous kings in Israel vs. the unrighteous kings during the Biblical days. The righteous kings cut off the high places of worship to idols (in effect they were limiting the "choice" of people!) while the unrighteous kings allowed people to worship these idols under every grove. God favored the actions of the righteous kings.


tpetersel wrote:
May I play devil's advocate?

I personally firmly stand on the side of life and the preservation of marriage as my personal values choice.

Other people may make a personally 'wrong' values choice as we see it. But how much right do we have as individuals to legislate away their rights to 'equality under the law?'

Sometimes I think we fear a stampede of 'coming outs' that would further undermine our social fabric, but I don't know if the legalization of gay marriage wil result in a surge of overall 'gayness' in society.

I struggle with this sometimes when I think of the Ceasar/God argument.

Should human beings have the right to make a wrong choice without our governmental interference? Even God gave us free wills to choose not to serve Him.

I don't think we should make it easy... and we should definately continue to advocate for the traditional family... I just sometimes feel badly that we paint gay people into a box that makes them the scary 'other' to be booted from acceptable society.. and I don't know if that's the approach Jesus himself would take.

How do you love the sinner yet hate the sin in this situation?

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:38 pm 
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It will be interesting to see what McCain has to say about this, especially since he is trying to get CA in play for the republicans in Nov. Of course, Huckabee would be against this. Wonder what Romney has to say, as his state also legalized gay marriage.

My whole problem with the legalization of gay marriage, is that it seems like it legitamizes homosexuality- that gay marriage is normal, just like heterosexual marriage is normal. Look at all the young kids today that are experimenting with gay sex or almost sex, just because tv shows, actors/actresses/singers, movies make it seem like it is normal. Just another aspect of our society making it normal. As I remind my teenage children, God did not think it was normal, and spoke out against it in the bible.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:40 pm 
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I do not support gay marriage and voted for the Traditional Marriage Amendment in my state. I want to protect traditional marriage.

But I know that morality cannot be legislated, but rather change of a persons heart through Christ.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:05 pm 
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You now what is worse?

That the Supreme Court of California is controlled by Republicans 6-1 Democrat.

The decision was 4-3.

3 Rino Judges. :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:08 pm 
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This is a sad, sad day for California.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Jumping Beans wrote:
You now what is worse?

That the Supreme Court of California is controlled by Republicans 6-1 Democrat.

The decision was 4-3.

3 Rino Judges. :cry:


Which is exactly why we can't trust every person who comes in the name of "Republicanism" and why on occasion...we need to trust a Democrat (not all Democrats are bad).

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:25 pm 
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DannyPoo wrote:
Jumping Beans wrote:
You now what is worse?

That the Supreme Court of California is controlled by Republicans 6-1 Democrat.

The decision was 4-3.

3 Rino Judges. :cry:


Which is exactly why we can't trust every person who comes in the name of "Republicanism" and why on occasion...we need to trust a Democrat (not all Democrats are bad).


We should note that there may be a significant difference between a "Californian Republican's nominee" and a conservative Republican's nominee. Also, don't nominees have to make it through the state legislature? That adds another twist.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:41 pm 
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I was at the oral arguments in San Francisco about 2 months ago for this case and there is a lot of blame to go around.

1) Gov. Schwarzenegger Attorney was the lead on the defense of traditional marriage and he was basically incompetent. The Gov did not make sure this case was handled well and he needs to be voted out of office because of this and other reasons.

2) These bad appointments
Joyce Luther Kennard (b. May 6, 1941) is an associate justice on the California Supreme Court (appointed 1989 by Gov. George Deukmejian).

Ronald Marc George (born March 11, 1940) is the current and 27th Chief Justice of California, where he heads the Supreme Court of California. He was appointed to his current position by Governor Pete Wilson in May 1996.

On October 18, 2001, Moreno was appointed to the Supreme Court of California following his nomination by Governor Gray Davis.

Kathryn Mickle Werdegar, (since 1994), Associate Justice (Pete Wilson appointment I think)

Except for the one by Gray Davis, they were ALL done by MODERATE Republicans.

===========================================

How do we fight this?

1) This is judicial activism. I would not be all that mad if the voters of a state approved same-sex marriage. I would oppose it and see it as harmful to society although it would not bother me because it would be the people getting what they wanted. That is why I would be sad if Obama is elected but not mad because it would be fair.

2) Fighting short-term political battles is not the long-term answer. The key is to train the youth of the nation (10-20yo) how to think, reason, debate, etc.

3) Renewal of society will only come from a spiritual renewal. The United States has 4 main worldviews.
1) Christian
2) Secular Humanistic
3) Marxist/Communistic (sub category of secular humamistic
4) New Age (not a complete worldview but pretty close)

People need to realize that if they are mixing worldviews then guarantee you that their worldview is NOT consistent. Most Americans that I talk to do not have a consistent worldview...example: They believe there is a God but they do not believe he has anything to do with the forming of the world, that he does not care how we live (except for big stuff like murder), and that truth is up to each person to decide.

Everyone I know says the holocaust is wrong but do not know why. They say because it is murder...well

Why is murder wrong? Because it hurt another person.

Well why is that wrong? Because it just is. (I believe the answer is because that other person was made in the image of God and therefore has inherent worth and value and therefore should not be harmed.

Until the American church is willing to cast out moral relativism and go back to teaching truth from God's word then we will just keep going down this road because if there is no God, our lives are worthless and it doesn't matter how we live. If that is the case then same-sex marriage and many other things are ok as long as the relativistic society approves them.

SO IN SHORT
1) Train Youth to Know What They Believe, What Others Believe, and What Others Believe About What They Believe
2) The Church needs to get back to teaching truth and dealing with the big questions of life head on. Either their is a response to the secular arguments or your faith is false. I believe there are very good arguments.
3) Only when this is done will be people have the moral strength to know what they believe and act on it in effecting public policy.
4) DON'T SUPPORT ANY Moderate/RINO REPUBLICANS. IF WE STOP SUPPORTING THEM THEN THEY LOSE AND GET THE POINT THAT WE NEED PEOPLE OF STRONG MORALS AND A DESIRE FOR REAL CHANGE (not selfish political games) AND ACTION ON ISSUES LIKE ENERGY, IMMIGRATION, TAX FAIRNESS, ETC.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:17 pm 
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Thank you Tpetersel for your Devil's Advocate position. My executive assistant, William, is gay, and I am Atheist. Both of us are passionate Huckabee supporters.

William and his partner did not want a religious marriage, just a recognition that they were a couple and allowed at the other's bedside at death. His partner's family which was both homophobic and Evangelical barred William from the hospital. I actually wrote the Huckabee campaign about this issue. The answer I got, while private, sustained William throughout the ordeal.

I also lived in California from 1947 to 1991. Before I left, California passed a domestic partnership law. Unfortunately, many counties chose to disregard its provisions in favor of religious interpretation. This is the result.

Californians are no more odd than average--San Franciscans always excepted. However, when an overwhelming majority of voters agree to a policy, the state courts have no choice but to uphold the law.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:30 pm 
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lrobb wrote:
Thank you Tpetersel for your Devil's Advocate position. My executive assistant, William, is gay, and I am Atheist. Both of us are passionate Huckabee supporters.

William and his partner did not want a religious marriage, just a recognition that they were a couple and allowed at the other's bedside at death. His partner's family which was both homophobic and Evangelical barred William from the hospital. I actually wrote the Huckabee campaign about this issue. The answer I got, while private, sustained William throughout the ordeal.


lrobb-

Just wanted to say I am glad you are part of Hucks Army. I enjoy reading your comments. I have thought this for some time -- so I thought I would share. I am sorry for what William experienced both in the loss of his partner and that he was barred from the hospital. It saddens my heart to hear that happened.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:36 pm 
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It's scary to realize that so many people in the U.S. do not understand what marriage is all about in the first place.

There is a lot of people that need to be, in a loving manner, educated about what marriage actually is. Maybe Mike Huckabee can be a voice that educates America and silences the lies about marriage.


Side note: No matter if the US ecomomy is perfect, we're all driving inexpensive hydrogen cars, there are no more issues with health care and immigration, and the U.S. is not in dead end military pursuits. Without God's approval on our nation we will have a very weak foundation.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:40 pm 
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Quote:
William and his partner did not want a religious marriage, just a recognition that they were a couple and allowed at the other's bedside at death. His partner's family which was both homophobic and Evangelical barred William from the hospital.


I think the partner should have been admitted as well. I think it only makes sense. I think that any non-relative should be allowed at bedside assuming there is room and they are wanted. That is the loving thing to do.

With the CA case (which CA already has domestic partnership) the key thing as to why it needed to be called marriage was argued to be because of the "intangible social legitimization". By calling a same-sex union "marriage", "marriage" now becomes "opposite sex marriage". The gay activists are chasing a moving target. They want the social esteem of marriage but that will never happen as long as people draw a distinction between same-sex and opposite sex marriage.

While I do not socially esteem same-sex unions, I do tolerate them (ie, I don't want them put in jail for their behavior). I think that is the important thing when dealing with other faiths and most behaviors. That is the distinction between Christianity and Islam. Christianity thinks it is rights and Islam is wrong but it tolerates Islam and does not want those people killed. Islam thinks it is right and Christianity is wrong and it does want the infidels (non-Islamists whether they are Christian or not) killed. That is plain from my reading of the Koran.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:59 pm 
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from politico:http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/
Quote:
Said spokesman Tucker Bounds in a statement:

“John McCain supports the right of the people of California to recognize marriage as a unique institution sanctioning the union between a man and a woman, just as he did in his home state of Arizona. John McCain doesn’t believe judges should be making these decisions.”


Obama's campaign also noted, in a different way, their candidate's view that states should decide. What Obama didn't say is that he's opposed to gay marriage (note the phraseology of first sentence)

Barack Obama has always believed that same-sex couples should enjoy equal rights under the law, and he will continue to fight for civil unions as President. He respects the decision of the California Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage.
Because Obama is not where the far left wants him to be (marriage) and McCain not where the far right wants him to be (a federal ban), this is not something either will probably make front and center.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:03 pm 
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I remember watching the debates when Ron Paul said we didn't need a marriage amendment because the dictionary defines marriage. Sure wish Massachusetts and California had enough money in their budgets to buy some dictionaries.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:14 pm 
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GrannyT wrote:
I remember watching the debates when Ron Paul said we didn't need a marriage amendment because the dictionary defines marriage. Sure wish Massachusetts and California had enough money in their budgets to buy some dictionaries.

Well Said! :lol:

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